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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    They were fighting a turf war with them. Garrosh made it into a full blown freaking war.

    Tell me this. If orgrimmar was having all wooden structures replaced with metal ones and all orc buildings around kalimdor down the same, why would Garrosh need more lumber from ashenvale then they horde already was getting? He didn't, he just wanted to carry on his daddies conflict with the night elves.
    I think we need to also take the skull he has over his throne and the horns of the particular demon he is wearing into account. While mannoroth might be dead His corrupting influence might still be around and influencing garrosh.
    tl;dr Is just another way of saying I am about to troll

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by mazox74 View Post
    I think we need to also take the skull he has over his throne and the horns of the particular demon he is wearing into account. While mannoroth might be dead His corrupting influence might still be around and influencing garrosh.
    or Garrosh is just a massive D**k and always will be.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Tell me this. If orgrimmar was having all wooden structures replaced with metal ones and all orc buildings around kalimdor down the same, why would Garrosh need more lumber from ashenvale then they horde already was getting? He didn't, he just wanted to carry on his daddies conflict with the night elves.
    Horde buildings still contain plenty of wood.
    If everything was made of pure metal, it would be very expensive and very uncomfortable

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-09 at 01:06 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mazox74 View Post
    I think we need to also take the skull he has over his throne and the horns of the particular demon he is wearing into account. While mannoroth might be dead His corrupting influence might still be around and influencing garrosh.
    those bones have been in Org for years, nothing has happened because of them
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  4. #64
    mannoroths skull was recently put above garrosh's throne and he is wearing the horns as armor. that has not been going on for years.
    tl;dr Is just another way of saying I am about to troll

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by JFrombaugh View Post
    Blizzard has strongly advanced the theory that we would see her abandon her beliefs & become more of a warmonger-type who is focused on getting revenge on Garrosh (and that putting her in charge of the Kirin Tor was possibly a big mistake). I haven't read Tides of War, and I haven't heard much about the Kirin Tor saga in Patch 5.1, so I don't know if this has indeed happened. I'm going to find it hard to support Blizzard's story team if this is how they are going to "develop" characters like her.
    and I haven't heard much about the Kirin Tor saga in Patch 5.1, so I don't know if this has indeed happened. I'm going to find it hard to support Blizzard's story team if this is how they are going to "develop" characters like her.
    the Kirin Tor saga
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by mazox74 View Post
    mannoroths skull was recently put above garrosh's throne and he is wearing the horns as armor. that has not been going on for years.
    but they have been on display in Org for years, and nothing has happened because of them
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by mazox74 View Post
    I think we need to also take the skull he has over his throne and the horns of the particular demon he is wearing into account. While mannoroth might be dead His corrupting influence might still be around and influencing garrosh.
    Mannoroth isn't dead.

    Demons are like elementals, in order to actually destroy them you have to fight them on their home plane. So while we can remove them from Azeroth or Outland for a while all we're doing is destroying their avatar in our particular realm. In order to actually kill a demon you have to go into the twisting nether.

    All that said, the bones be just bones. Though they should just be a breastplate like when you defeat Magtheridon or even say Varimithras. Garrosh is actually highly sensitive to demonic corruption and one of his few noble traits is that he'd tear down Org with his bare hands if he had to root it out. Doesn't mean he's not willing to do other horrible things or make faustian bargians - dude is totally a Kael'Thas - it's just that his line is demons. Now repurposing titan-tech and dark but not fel magics to reshape flesh and create horde super-soldiers? Oh that's totally on the table.

    Anyway, just remember this, the game is called World of WARcraft. I'm glad their finally creating some tension between the factions. In Vanilla we were playing as Footmen and Grunts, the units you get out of your barracks and such, in that time our characters have evolved into full blown hero units with flavor text to match, it's nice to see that we now have some real dramatic tension going on rather than feeling constantly reactive and passive.

    Jaina will remain a general voice for peace, but her cries for peace now have a much deeper meaning and when she puts her foot down now she's got a deeper emotional cache to draw on.

  8. #68
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    Isnt that only certain demons, like Dreadlords, that need certain circumstances to be killed.
    Pretty sure lorewise Mannoroth is dead and gone
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  9. #69
    I don't think her character is being mishandled.

    She pushed so hard for peace for years, but what did it get her? The Horde marching on her city and destroying it with a manabomb. Colossal loss of life of those who she lead. Sinking into anger and grief, she almost commits an atrocity but is talked out of it. Despite her anger, which she admits to having to wrestle with every day, she strives to preserve the Kirin Tor's neutrality, believing that if the Horde and Alliance can work together and stay above the war, then there's hope for the world. But then the Sunreavers, or at least some of them, betray Jaina. She tells them to leave, Aethas refuses. Even then she doesn't go on a mindless rampage. She captures those that surrender, only killing those that fight back.

    Was Jaina right to purge the Horde from Dalaran? Maybe not. But it's an understandable thing for her to do. She's had enough of peace at all costs. That got her last city destroyed. Maybe she made a mistake. Her making a mistake doesn't mean she's a badly written character. Cairne made a mistake when he accused Garrosh of killing sentinels, but people still hold Cairne in high regard. Thrall has made mistakes, but he's largely held in high regard by many, though others like him less since Cata. I think the flow of events for Jaina make perfect sense. The only thing that smells of bad writing is the whole prophecy of Krasus thing used to help get her into the leadership position in Dalaran.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-08 at 07:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Isnt that only certain demons, like Dreadlords, that need certain circumstances to be killed.
    Pretty sure lorewise Mannoroth is dead and gone
    Yes, only the Dreadlords are said to have to be killed on their own world. Archimonde and Mannoroth as far as we know are dead dead.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-08 at 07:38 PM ----------

    As for Garrosh there is ZERO need to assume he's under demonic corruption via mannoroth's bones to explain his actions.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Isnt that only certain demons, like Dreadlords, that need certain circumstances to be killed.
    Pretty sure lorewise Mannoroth is dead and gone
    http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Banish_the_Demons

    "The problem with demons is that, once killed, they come right back in new bodies!"

    and not a single dreadlord is involved on this quest. just some shivarra, felguards, gan'args and green fire corehounds.
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    but they have been on display in Org for years, and nothing has happened because of them
    A smart Demon would bide their time and wait for the best oppurtunity. I just get the feeling something is in Garrosh's ear and after reading the book this is what struck me. I could be totally wrong but it does seem a possibility.
    tl;dr Is just another way of saying I am about to troll

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    I was talkin about her time in power at Dalaran.
    She starts off saying that Dalaran will remain above the war, but still lends her powers to the Alliance
    When does she aid the Alliance after taking her lead at the Kirin Tor? Specifics.
    If you're going to say that she prevents Garrosh from getting Yet Another Superweapon, I don't see that as aid to the Alliance. Any more than when the Kirin Tor have worked to prevent access to dangerous artifacts in the past.
    Help control the population. Have your blood elf spayed or neutered.

  13. #73
    I find the notion that Theramore should not have participated in the war effort by Alliance quite silly Theramore was part of the Alliance and had stronger ties with the night elves they share the continent with than the horde, despite the leader's interactions. When the nightelves are under attack by the horde it should be expected that there will be some retaliation from the south. Its just as common as to expect the Tauren to assist Orcs in their time of need.

    Jaina wants peace, but she was still not a leader of a neutral faction such as cenarion circle or Argent Dawn, whom welcomes races from both factions.

  14. #74
    Garrosh being reasonable/listening to reason: Echoing Saurfang's words as he killed his psychotic general. Not killing Cairne on the spot when he called him out on a false claim.

    Either way, my point is that Jaina's decision to allow Alliance to invade to the very doorstep of two Horde capitals is what ignited the Horde v. Alliance conflict more than anything Garrosh had done until 5.1. Jaina deserved the bombing of Theramore and it was truly saddening to find out that she survived.
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by mazox74 View Post
    A smart Demon would bide their time and wait for the best oppurtunity. I just get the feeling something is in Garrosh's ear and after reading the book this is what struck me. I could be totally wrong but it does seem a possibility.
    sounds like somethin a Dreadlord would do
    I personaly dont see it likely at this point, but nothin's impossible on Azeroth

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-09 at 03:56 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by BrerBear View Post
    When does she aid the Alliance after taking her lead at the Kirin Tor? Specifics.
    If you're going to say that she prevents Garrosh from getting Yet Another Superweapon, I don't see that as aid to the Alliance. .
    She was lending her powers to aid the Alliance. Aiding any side is the opposite of neutrality.
    It may not be direct military support, but it still is support.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-09 at 03:58 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    Either way, my point is that Jaina's decision to allow Alliance to invade to the very doorstep of two Horde capitals is what ignited the Horde v. Alliance conflict more than anything Garrosh had done
    Garrosh is a warrior through and through.
    He wanted this war, he was eager for it.

    This war, if won, fullfills some of his primary driving forces. Establishing the future he believes the Horde deserves, and to be hailed as a legend, just like his father.

    The timeline is sketch as fuck, but im pretty sure the invasions of Ashenvele ignited just as much conflict.
    Last edited by Dreknar20; 2012-12-09 at 04:02 AM.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    She was lending her powers to aid the Alliance. Aiding any side is the opposite of neutrality.
    It may not be direct military support, but it still is support.
    I think you're a little confused here. She secured the portals so that the opposite faction couldn't abuse them. It is not breaking neutrality to secure a weapon in your possession so that one side cannot use it against the other. Can you prove the sunreaver portals weren't secured as well?

  17. #77
    Jaina will eventually become the next Lich King... or Queen.

  18. #78
    Jaina feels like te same person to me..doing the sheildwall event ive learned much about her in this issue..she even explains how the past leaders of the kirin tor have gone and went evil KT for one. and the blood elf prince. infact she asks the allaicne what she should do we actually have a shot at kicking out the horde lol. but doing that option she goes with trying to unify the allaicne and horde kirin tor and teach the rest of the world ot can work...because apparently the argent crusade who had the same idea it will catch on.
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  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    I think you're a little confused here. She secured the portals so that the opposite faction couldn't abuse them. It is not breaking neutrality to secure a weapon in your possession so that one side cannot use it against the other. Can you prove the sunreaver portals weren't secured as well?
    Im a bit confused by what your saying?

    The Divine Bell was not in Jaina's possesion, the Alliance owned it.
    She didnt secure her own portals, thats what the Sunreavers exploited, she secured Darnassus against any magical interference or what not.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    Either way, my point is that Jaina's decision to allow Alliance to invade to the very doorstep of two Horde capitals is what ignited the Horde v. Alliance conflict more than anything Garrosh had done until 5.1. Jaina deserved the bombing of Theramore and it was truly saddening to find out that she survived.
    Yeah, I'm sure the Horde making grabby-hands at Darnassus and Exodar had nothing to do with it. The Horde's vision for Kalimdor can be plainly seen in Azshara. You really want to put up Camp Taurajo against all of Stonetalon, half of Ashenvale? I'm not even going to count the stuff Sylvanas has done. If any city "deserves" to be razed to a plate of magically imbued glass, it's Orgimmar. Too bad the Alliance don't play that.
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