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  1. #101
    Have you noticed that it's the mages (belfs and Jaina) that's all gung-ho for war between the factions, but yet it's the warlocks that are working together? Guess that shows who has their shit together. /trollface

  2. #102
    In Jaina's own words in her quest text, she's tired of being stabbed in the back when trying to mend fences. I don't see this change as forced. It's her having enough after Theramore was mana bombed, and she's betrayed from within the Sunreavers. Does she make the right decision in expelling the Sunreavers? Maybe not. But everyone has a snapping point, and I don't see it as bad writing just because she's moving in a direction some people don't like. If anything Jaina saying 'enough is enough' makes her more realistic.

    After Tides of War, Jaina has had to struggle with her anger every day, in her own words. The betrayal from within the sunreavers is the straw that broke the camel's back, after they helped give Garrosh, the person who used a magical super weapon to annihilate her city, ANOTHER magical super weapon he'll use against the Alliance. If not for Anduin finding the Harmonic Mallet, he might well have used it to destroy the Alliance if he learned to harness it as the Thunder King did.

    I can understand people being disappointed that Jaina's had enough and isn't perusing peace above all else now. But it's not bad writing just because you don't like it. Keep in mind it was only because of Thrall that Jaina forged a peace with the horde to begin with. It was only with Thrall in charge she was able to maintain it to some degree. With Garrosh in charge, she has no reason to pursue peace with them.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Read between the lines. The ones who did so are following what Garrosh tells them for fear of what he will do if they don't. Every faction within the horde is held by the balls currently under Garrosh's hand, they act not out of wanting betrayal but fear.
    So because they're unwilling planning on killing in the same fashion as Theramore Jaina should just do nothing and allow the Horde to remain in Dalaran and use their resources to commit such an act?
    I'm not sure what you're suggesting she does. One of her factions has shown to include members who put their loyalty to the Horde over her and would use her resources to duplicate Theramore.

    http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/...617#post594617
    This post on SoL I found kinda sums up the position nicely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    They used dalaran as a portal to darnassus, and it was Jaina who made it into an alliance thing, instead of cutting off dalaran from the war, she made it into an alliance issue.
    Jaina/Dalaran was acting as part of a neutral and independent to protect a WMD from any threat that wished to use it, it is never said that the shield was there to stop the Horde in fact it's more likely it was put in place to stop the Mogu, nor were Dalaran's resources used to attack the other side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    She decided all were guilty instead of the few who did it.
    She didn't decide all were guilty you're now just using a straw man argument.
    She acted assuming that she couldn't trust which were friends and which foes and that taking any risk could and would as the Horde had proven assist the Horde in achieving another Theramore.

    Like in irl where you can hold a suspected terrorist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Her speech is meaningless.
    It stops her from siding with either faction initially. It is far from meaningless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Wrong on the second one, I've always admired Jaina's stance on trying for peace even when you had idiots like Garrosh and Varian at each others throats.
    So tell me why you dislike her speech and actions about remaining neutral despite the fact the Horde killed the Kirin Tor's leader and blew up Theramore.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Jaina/Dalaran was acting as part of a neutral and independent to protect a WMD from any threat that wished to use it, it is never said that the shield was there to stop the Horde in fact it's more likely it was put in place to stop the Mogu, nor were Dalaran's resources used to attack the other side.
    She was aiding in the defense of an Alliance city. That is not neutral.

    Being neutral means helping no side.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    She was aiding in the defense of an Alliance city. That is not neutral.

    Being neutral means helping no side.
    Being neutral means you are willing to help both sides while remaining a part of neither. Dalaran aided the Alliance in a neutral way by assisting them in safeguarding a WMD which also happens to be one of the Kirin Tor and Kalegos's duties - safeguarding magical artifacts.
    If you're second point were true then every neutral faction in the game isn't neutral as each one of them has aided both factions.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2012-12-09 at 07:51 PM.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Being neutral means you are willing to help both sides while remaining a part of neither. Dalaran aided the Alliance in a neutral way by assisting them in safeguarding a WMD which also happens to be one of the Kirin Tor and Kalegos's duties - safeguarding magical artifacts.
    If you're second point were true then every neutral faction in the game isn't neutral as each one of them has aided both factions.
    Why was the artifact of evil stored in alliance city. Night Elf city no less, may aswell give it to Garrosh, would be more responsible than leaving it with elves.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Being neutral means you are willing to help both sides while remaining a part of neither. Dalaran aided the Alliance in a neutral way by assisting them in safeguarding a WMD which also happens to be one of the Kirin Tor and Kalegos's duties - safeguarding magical artifacts.
    If you're second point were true then every neutral faction in the game isn't neutral as each one of them has aided both factions.
    Willing to help both sides.....
    Yet she punishes Sunreavers for aiding the Horde?

    If they were trying to make no-one use the atrifact, why not take it to Dalaran instead of leaving in the custodian of one of the warring factions. What no one on the Alliance forces is even thinking os using such power/weapon?
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by JFrombaugh View Post
    Although I know many disagree with me, the whole Theramore/Tides of War story has had me worried from the get-go, because I for one have always really liked Jaina for her peaceful & sympathetic nature.
    You are one of the few, while any real alliance views her past sympathetic actions toward the horde as treason, I mean even from a more diplomatic point of view she should of been hung for not only getting in her kings way but actually using teleportation to forcefully remove him from not 1 but 2 battles with horde leadership.

  9. #109
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    its my opinion that there needs to be an antagonist on one side or the other to keep the war going in warcraft. this may or not be the beginning of that for jaina but it sure seems like their at least keeping the possibility of it open.

    when garrosh is disposed of, albeit killed, redeemed, banished etc. etc., then there will still need to be a gambit on one side or the other to keep things interesting. with the rumors and speculation flying around its quite possible i suppose that jaina could be this catalyst. one could argue that the roles of the alliance and horde could very swtich with the horde going to more of a council type heirarchy similar to the alliance and the alliance going to more of a horde type heirarchy with varian being high king.

    there has to be a black sheep i think and it certainly could be that jaina turns out to be this sheep

    edit : i forgot about her dealings with dalaran, she could end up being level headed and just becoming neutral to lead the kirin tor and all of what i wrote continue to just be speculation

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    The ironic thing here, is that Varian is the one who has mellowed out, he's become far more rational then he once was, and mostly I put that down to Anduin teaching a lesson to his father.

    Jaina has been warped into something else, the compassionate and steadfast Jaina we use to know has now become an erratic one, one who goes from talking about peace one minute, then wanting to go to war the next, back to hoping for peace, and turning on the war switch again. She's a mess.

    She actually has much the same temperament as Varian does however she has nobody to piss on her parade and stop her from acting on her emotions, while varians emotions have always been held in check by Jaina and Anduin.

    The saving grace of both characters is that they know it is unwise to hold an entire faction accountable for the decisions/actions of it's leadership.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Willing to help both sides.....
    Yet she punishes Sunreavers for aiding the Horde?
    One used the aid to hurt the other faction, the other didn't.
    To further the idea that she aided Darnassus against any threat rather than the Horde listen to her when you're tracking down the thieves, at no point does she mention it being the Horde until she finds the portal to Dalaran, heck prior to this she suspected it was an inside job of the Alliance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    If they were trying to make no-one use the atrifact, why not take it to Dalaran instead of leaving in the custodian of one of the warring factions. What no one on the Alliance forces is even thinking os using such power/weapon?
    Because it was the Alliance who took the artifact, they also know there's a Horde presence in Dalaran of which they warned Jaina about which is another reason why they wouldn't give such an artifact the Horde desired to a city with Horde in it.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2012-12-09 at 09:42 PM.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    I was talkin about her time in power at Dalaran.
    She starts off saying that Dalaran will remain above the war, but still lends her powers to the Alliance

    Not that Im bashing her for it. She does have more ties to the Alliance than Horde.
    But saying the Sunreavers are being punished for breaking neutrality seems silly when Jaina already has done so.
    Please. Taking preventative measures, such as protection for alliance cities isn't really breaking a neutrality. It's simply making sure the fight isn't taken out on points in the Alliance where hundreds of innocents live.
    Stealing an artifact secured by the Alliance, now that is actually breaking that neutrality.
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  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketbear View Post
    Stealing an artifact secured by the Alliance, now that is actually breaking that neutrality.
    "Hey, how you dare steal what we rightuly stolen!"

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketbear View Post
    Please. Taking preventative measures, such as protection for alliance cities isn't really breaking a neutrality. It's simply making sure the fight isn't taken out on points in the Alliance where hundreds of innocents live.
    Stealing an artifact secured by the Alliance, now that is actually breaking that neutrality.
    And there's precedent.
    The Horde murdered the squad of blue dragons that were trying to secure the Focusing Iris, and we saw how that ended up.
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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    "Hey, how you dare steal what we rightuly stolen!"
    its not stealing if the owners are dead right?
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    I'm a little at odds with the OP's title.

    How on earth can you compare Jaina imprisoning an organisation (NOT going out and killing them in cold blood) which has traitors in it to a genocidal Undead Elf who employs necromancy, plague and damn near any other depraved method along with having next to moral qualms about slaughtering entire populaces along with ordering slavery.
    Well, I mean really, let's get down to it. The only reason this is an issue at all is because you can't have a World War II allegory without someone to play the role of the Japanese. The Blood Elves are the ones who bombed Theramore (Pearl Harbor) and so, they're the ones who had their innocent expatriates put into internment because of suspected treachery. That's all there is to it. You know how buddy-buddy America and Japan are now, right? Calling it. 6.0, High Elves as playable race.
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  17. #117
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    Jaina still is behaving like Jaina would.

    If you know, exposed to the harsh realities of war. With this quest chain datamined, I was worried about her becoming a warmonger. Hatred for the Sunreavers. I then was able to experience the quest chain and able to sympathize with Jaina.


    'Don't go soft on me, Varian' - Greatest Jaina quote of all time though.
    Quote Originally Posted by r03dz View Post
    Also, Jaina and Vereesa going for a rid on their skeleton horses. :P (typo intended)
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  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sett View Post
    Jaina still is behaving like Jaina would.

    If you know, exposed to the harsh realities of war. With this quest chain datamined, I was worried about her becoming a warmonger. Hatred for the Sunreavers. I then was able to experience the quest chain and able to sympathize with Jaina.


    'Don't go soft on me, Varian' - Greatest Jaina quote of all time though.
    I prefer Lor'themars "That human Witch" ;P

    Though Jaina is absolutely reasonable here.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

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