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  1. #1
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    [Frost] Icy Veins Glyph - Possibly Bad

    So I saw my ranks go down when Method's mage, Kuznam, rose to the top of every heroic rank as frost. I wanted to understand why he could obliterate my respectable numbers. So I looked at his armory and noticed there was no Icy Veins glyph.

    Against all convention, this seems intriguing, not only because you increase the amount of frostbolts, but because the FoF procs will also increase.

    So I did some real basic napkin math and this is what I've got.

    For Heroic 25M Blade Lord Ta'yak:

    Based off Akraen, US-Ysera 2012-12-07 Unbuffed
    Code:
    Intellect	16754		Haste	9110	(21.44%)	Spell Power	24292	
    Mastery	2588	(24.63%)	Crit	1609	(10.20%)			
    								
    Spell	          Hits	           Avg	 Crits	           Avg	    IV Hits	    Avg	IV Crits	Avg
    Frostbolt	 75.00 	 47,518.00 	 14.00 	   97,374.40        44.00         26,526.50 	 10.00 	 56,102.70 
    Frostfire Bolt    9.00 	 74,678.90 	 21.00 	  157,318.50   	    1.00 	 44,469.00 	  9.00 	 82,123.40 
    Ice Lance	 12.00 	 42,349.50 	 30.00 	  127,687.90 	    7.00 	 25,177.90 	 19.00 	 97,454.40 
    								
    					Icy Veins Uptime:		5	22.70%
    
    Damage gained from IV Glyph:						                        	  	          907,930.30 
    Express the unglyphed scenario with 1/3 of the IV hits & crits being for the full average amount.								
    Damage lost from IV Glyph:			                                					 2,425,866.00 
    FoF Procs Lost	12%	106 sec	NT GCD/12	20% FoF GCD		3.533333333		
    So roughly 3-4 extra FoF should happen through the course of a fight								
    Damage lost from slower FB during Icy Veins:								                   347,147.93 
    Total Damage Discrepancy:								                                (1,865,083.63)
    				                                                   damage lost by glyphing icy veins
    So I know it's simple math, but even with just this it seems like you're losing so much damage with glyph of icy veins. I'm going to remove the glyph for the next few raids and see how I compare moving forward.

  2. #2
    Could it be that Kuznam swapped glyphs to go do dailies before logging out for the night?

  3. #3
    ...or he just outgears you by 17 lightyears and the glyph doesnt matter?

  4. #4
    Glyphed Icy Veins adds an invisible bonus to your chance to proc Fingers of Frost for the duration, did you factor that into your calculations?

  5. #5
    Bloodsail Admiral spaace's Avatar
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    too many factors, really..

    gear, skill, raid dps(theoretically, higher raid dps, higher your dps is), server (lower pings do matter), buffs/debuffs...

    Glyphed Icy does have that hidden fof proc (3 frostbolts, 3 chances..)

    I've noticed in my years of getting/keeping high dps records, you almost have to "pad" the meters to get to the top.
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  6. #6
    Isn't the overall affect of the glyph giving you more damage? Since each FB does 40% damage, but there are 3 bolts? 4 x 3 = 12? 20% more frostbolt damage per cast? or is that 20% not as effective as the decreased cast time?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by bowchikabow View Post
    Isn't the overall affect of the glyph giving you more damage? Since each FB does 40% damage, but there are 3 bolts? 4 x 3 = 12? 20% more frostbolt damage per cast? or is that 20% not as effective as the decreased cast time?
    Yea its 20% damage on frostbolt, frostfire bolt, and ice lance vs 20% haste. Thing is, haste also helps make your dots tick faster which gives you more FFBs and frostbolts cast faster, giving more chances to get ILs. Soooo dunno. He could be right, the glyph could be bad.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylol View Post
    Yea its 20% damage on frostbolt, frostfire bolt, and ice lance vs 20% haste. Thing is, haste also helps make your dots tick faster which gives you more FFBs and frostbolts cast faster, giving more chances to get ILs. Soooo dunno. He could be right, the glyph could be bad.
    It depends if each mini-frostbolt from the glyph can individually proc FoF. If this is the case, the proc chance of FoF would be greater with the glyph. While the proc chance of BF would be greater without.
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  9. #9
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    It depends if each mini-frostbolt from the glyph can individually proc FoF. If this is the case, the proc chance of FoF would be greater with the glyph. While the proc chance of BF would be greater without.
    It's not per bolt, but it's got a *1.2 mod on the FoF chance.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    So I saw my ranks go down when Method's mage, Kuznam, rose to the top of every heroic rank as frost. I wanted to understand why he could obliterate my respectable numbers. So I looked at his armory and noticed there was no Icy Veins glyph.
    Without trying to sound harsh, I think there's a bit more reasoning behind him doing almost 40k more dps than you on Blade Lord than "he didnt use glyph X"

  11. #11
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Yes - I checked the parses, he had it unglyphed in each of the fights.

    No - he doesn't outgear me by that much. I'm 498 with 4pc.

    No - I didn't expect to beat him, necessarily. This isn't about his DPS or my DPS, it's about the impact of Icy Veins Glyph.

    My understanding, and correct me if wrong, is that the chance to proc FoF was only off the first bolt in the split of the 3. It could not re-proc as the three bolts land too quickly, faster than the GCD of Ice Lance-- therefore it has no additional procs beyond a single cast.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-08 at 02:01 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ogFrenikk View Post
    Without trying to sound harsh, I think there's a bit more reasoning behind him doing almost 40k more dps than you on Blade Lord than "he didnt use glyph X"
    Please observe in my calculations they are my numbers with and my numbers without - his numbers are nowhere involved. He simply inspired me to double check what I consider to be optimal because up until the fire nerf, I hadn't had very many other frost mages to which I could compare myself.

  12. #12
    I distinctly remember Kuni saying in the Frost PvE Guide topic that Icy Veins glyphed adds a hidden extra percentage to the first tick of the three Frostbolts in order to compensate for the reduced casts, but I do not think the actual percentage was given or any source other than "A Blue told me".
    I haven't got much reason to disbelieve that because it sounds reasonable, Blizzard would of course be aware that removing the haste reduces the number of FoF procs, but it'd be nice to be able to be a lot more specific.

  13. #13
    Sims show the gylph to be a 0.8% dps buff.

    So in the end, you never know if he couldn't have done 700dps more on every fight if glyphed.

    It's kind of clunky because i don't know if this hidden percentage is real.

  14. #14
    The question to ask is what glyph is he using over it?

    He may be dropping it for a more dubious reason and not because of DPS
    nothing but empty space here bro. move along now.

  15. #15
    If you have an extra 20% chance to proc FoF while you have IV with the glyph then the amount of procs you get will not change from not having the glyph. Adding this to the fact that your DoTs will tick faster and you will get extra Brain Freeze procs, the glyph will only be beter if you used IV while BL/TW was up or you have massive amounts of haste.

  16. #16
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    I'm actually doing ingame proc chance testing right now, I figure I should confirm what I was told. Given all the weird bugs there have been with the glyph since launch...
    Last edited by Kuni Zyrekai; 2012-12-08 at 08:40 AM.

  17. #17
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    This has been discussed before a bit. You might find some useful info from this thread:
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...it-reliability

    The 120% damage and the 20% haste sort of cancel each other out so it's +20% FoF proc vs faster DoT ticks and possible a faster evocate. This has no math backing and could be completely wrong though.

    You can probably do what you want with only a slight dps difference that won't even matter to most.
    Last edited by jtmzac; 2012-12-08 at 09:07 AM.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Dither9 View Post
    If you have an extra 20% chance to proc FoF while you have IV with the glyph then the amount of procs you get will not change from not having the glyph. Adding this to the fact that your DoTs will tick faster and you will get extra Brain Freeze procs, the glyph will only be beter if you used IV while BL/TW was up or you have massive amounts of haste.
    But that's the aim, isn't it? As frost, you stack haste anyways, there are some bosses with haste buffs and never forget:

    ungylphed + heroism is for sure better than glyphed and used without heroism. That's perhaps the main difference between gylphed and unglyphed: you can use IV without any side effects under heroism, even use alter time to take even more benefit of those.

    So i think in most cases, the glyph is a dps gain because it gives you a 20% higher chance of getting fof proccs (instead of casting 20% faster and getting 20% more proccs because you cast 20% more often).

  19. #19
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    The point (and question) is whether or not that 20% haste really does cancel out with the extra 20% damage. You can assume crit will be a constant. However, I'm thinking (and wishing a better math brain would step in), that at a certain point in haste it must justify removing the glyph again because just one extra frost bolt will probably exceed the 20% damage itself.

  20. #20
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    i'd go for 20% faster casts and gcd's over 20% dmg any day of the week tbh

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