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  1. #41
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSerialSniper View Post
    The question to ask is what glyph is he using over it?

    He may be dropping it for a more dubious reason and not because of DPS
    Unless I'm not using Invocation, I don't see a slot. Water Elemental allows your elemental to follow you and die a lot less (anyone try frost on Rhyolith? Try it w/o the glyph and you'll be resummoning him on cooldown...), Ice Lance gives Frost SOME level of cleaving (super-helpful on many, MANY fights; the shatter also applies to both), and Evocation gives you some level of heal (your guild will probably kill you if you don't have this on H Garajal)

    I simply don't bother with it because I don't have the space for it.

    Also, the 1.2x mod to FoF chance, is that only on Frostbolt, or is it applied to every spell? (i.e., Blizzard, Frozen Orb, and Scorch too) If just Frostbolt, that's kinda stupid because you lose casts on Blizzard/Scorch too, though if you're using Blizzard during IV, you used it very incorrectly, though still, I think the 20% mod should be applied to it as well as Scorch. Orb doesn't matter as it never benefit from IV.

    In addition, I think NT and LB should procc more BF since they're affected, too. Frost Bomb is as well, but because there's only one damaging tick from FB, there's not much to do to fix that. Maybe just lower the CD and Duration w/ IV regardless if glyphed or not. (Oh, did you take into account less FFBs with your no-glyph vs glyph check? That should lower it a bit more)
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2012-12-11 at 01:13 PM.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Yes - I checked the parses, he had it unglyphed in each of the fights.

    No - he doesn't outgear me by that much. I'm 498 with 4pc.

    No - I didn't expect to beat him, necessarily. This isn't about his DPS or my DPS, it's about the impact of Icy Veins Glyph.

    My understanding, and correct me if wrong, is that the chance to proc FoF was only off the first bolt in the split of the 3. It could not re-proc as the three bolts land too quickly, faster than the GCD of Ice Lance-- therefore it has no additional procs beyond a single cast.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-08 at 02:01 AM ----------



    Please observe in my calculations they are my numbers with and my numbers without - his numbers are nowhere involved. He simply inspired me to double check what I consider to be optimal because up until the fire nerf, I hadn't had very many other frost mages to which I could compare myself.
    He doesn't outgear you by that much, but he does outgear you. That's a relevant factor no matter how you look at it. His raid dps is (probably) higher than your raid dps, therefore he deals damage for a shorter time, making time warp and any other sort of cd that you wouldn't anw get to use more than the same number of times as him, more effective. As someone else pointed out, there's lag to factor in, and lastly, RNG... Maybe he was lucky/luckier than you with FoF and BF procs. In fact, if the glyphed IV proves to be better, he should have done even more if he used it.

    EDIT: Just checked his gear. Not outgearing you by much by your understanding is 5 ilvls difference?
    Last edited by Azlarn; 2012-12-11 at 04:42 PM.

  3. #43
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Azlarn, do you not understand my post?

    I calculated my numbers with the glyph, and my numbers without the glyph.

    All everyone has been doing in this thread is comparing me to the Method dude. The Method guy was the basis, the start, for me deciding to take a look at the Icy Veins Glyph.

    Anyway, I ran our clean-up raid without the glyph and my numbers were lower. Many factors could contribute to me seeing lower numbers, but what I am thinking now is simply that there are some variables I didn't take into consideration with my math.

    But still, I would love to know the rationale behind some of the top 10 guild's mages running without the glyph.

  4. #44
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Also, the 1.2x mod to FoF chance, is that only on Frostbolt, or is it applied to every spell? (i.e., Blizzard, Frozen Orb, and Scorch too) If just Frostbolt, that's kinda stupid because you lose casts on Blizzard/Scorch too, though if you're using Blizzard during IV, you used it very incorrectly, though still, I think the 20% mod should be applied to it as well as Scorch. Orb doesn't matter as it never benefit from IV.
    To my knowledge, just frostbolt, but I have been wrong before. The reasoning is that it's one of those things where you SHOULD know if you have enough time to pop your cooldowns, and not have to move more than a couple of instant's worth of total time. It's like having at least 20 seconds of invoc remaining when you pop it, it's just something you should make sure to have.
    Last edited by Kuni Zyrekai; 2012-12-11 at 07:00 PM.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Azlarn, do you not understand my post?

    I calculated my numbers with the glyph, and my numbers without the glyph.

    All everyone has been doing in this thread is comparing me to the Method dude. The Method guy was the basis, the start, for me deciding to take a look at the Icy Veins Glyph.

    Anyway, I ran our clean-up raid without the glyph and my numbers were lower. Many factors could contribute to me seeing lower numbers, but what I am thinking now is simply that there are some variables I didn't take into consideration with my math.

    But still, I would love to know the rationale behind some of the top 10 guild's mages running without the glyph.
    You could just, you know, ask Kuznam yourself. He streams on Twitch and Method have their own website. He's not some man of mystery that is impossible to track down.

  6. #46
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Anyway, I ran our clean-up raid without the glyph and my numbers were lower. Many factors could contribute to me seeing lower numbers, but what I am thinking now is simply that there are some variables I didn't take into consideration with my math.
    I was seeing the same. I think it is still the fact you're losing a lot of benefit of your haste. With alter time especially, you're trying to line up at least 2, if not 3 of our procs when you go into IV/AT. You're dumping most of your AT's bonus timer into those GCDs, and then the start of the reset IV. You're not getting as much of a bonus there; I only get 13% of the haste towards instant casts, and you have a lot more haste than I do. Whereas 20% damage on those is incredible burst, and if you're good, you're lining that up with trinket procs/time warp as well. I honestly think it's just a matter of CD stacking benefiting the glyphed version more.

  7. #47

  8. #48
    non glyph = faster nt ticks = more brain freeze. haste = more pet damage. more fof? nope.

  9. #49
    Just one thought:
    We only got problems with gcd in the phase with bloodlust and icy veins(unglyphed).
    This is only for 20 seconds of an fight.
    With 4pc we got icy veins very often. So we have let me say 4-5 times icy veins full bonus and 1 time no bonus (in the time with bloodlust) (unglyphed) vs 5-6 times normal bonus(glyphed). Does the 4pc setboni maybe hold the clue?

  10. #50
    You don't get more pet damage from haste than from the glyph, Waterbolt is tripled just like Frostbolt.

  11. #51
    You guys seems to forget the most important thing , The Glyph of Icy Veins makes you look awesome shoting all kind of blue crap at things and stuff

  12. #52
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    Just one thought:
    We only got problems with gcd in the phase with bloodlust and icy veins(unglyphed).
    This is only for 20 seconds of an fight.
    With 4pc we got icy veins very often. So we have let me say 4-5 times icy veins full bonus and 1 time no bonus (in the time with bloodlust) (unglyphed) vs 5-6 times normal bonus(glyphed). Does the 4pc setboni maybe hold the clue?
    No, without the glyph, the GCD cap is reach every Icy Veins after 19.05% haste. I don't get were you want to go with your blood calculation.
    The answers is 42
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  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    No, without the glyph, the GCD cap is reach every Icy Veins after 19.05% haste. I don't get were you want to go with your blood calculation.
    Sry my english is not very good.
    19.05% without buffs i assume? Otherwise i dont get it. (1,1905*1,2=1,4286)
    Let me take an example: We take an bossfight with 7 min till enrage.
    With 4pc we can cast 5 times icy veins in this 7 minutes.
    One time is with bloodlust and all the shit. This one time we need the glyph for not reaching the gcd. Means in this 20 sec the glyph gets it full potential.
    In the other 4 times (without bloodlust) the unglyphed variant would be better.
    So i think we dont have to calculate glyph vs unglyph while bloodlust alone. The fight is longer than the 40 second bloodlust.
    I hope now u understand what i mean.
    I also want to say again: Its a thought. I dont have any calculations or so.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    I forgot to mention it earlier but us older frost mages might still thinking about the old icy veins a bit where it was quite different. (only affecting frostbolt)

    Here's what I think is a more accurate comparison list:

    - 20% more bomb damage
    - Possible faster evocate
    vs.
    - Not hitting GCD cap on instant spells
    - 20% more damage from Frosbolt, Ice Lance, Frostfire Bolt and Waterbolt.
    - 20% more proc chance of FoF from Frostbolt

    I'm not sure where you got "20% more FoF procs on Frozen Orb" from I assume you just meant Frostbolt instead.

    As for proof I read the tooltips? And I know about the hidden 20% extra FoF chance from frostbolt.

    Feel free to add anything I missed.
    Proof of unglyphed veins beating glyphed until 9000 haste is what i asked for.


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  15. #55
    Ok so I know you are freaking out about icy veins glyph and how he was able to beat your dps without it, but after looking at the two parses I noticed something that should be obvious that stuck out to me. He received tricks of the trade from his rogue buddy 9 times during that kill. You recieved 0.

    Not saying that explains everything, but it might help to fill in some of the gap.


    edit: someone already mentioned this in the last page, but it seems to have been overlooked.
    Last edited by Guts the Black Swordsman; 2012-12-12 at 03:34 PM.

  16. #56
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomathan View Post
    Sry my english is not very good.
    19.05% without buffs i assume? Otherwise i dont get it. (1,1905*1,2=1,4286)
    Let me take an example: We take an bossfight with 7 min till enrage.
    With 4pc we can cast 5 times icy veins in this 7 minutes.
    One time is with bloodlust and all the shit. This one time we need the glyph for not reaching the gcd. Means in this 20 sec the glyph gets it full potential.
    In the other 4 times (without bloodlust) the unglyphed variant would be better.
    So i think we dont have to calculate glyph vs unglyph while bloodlust alone. The fight is longer than the 40 second bloodlust.
    I hope now u understand what i mean.
    I also want to say again: Its a thought. I dont have any calculations or so.
    I will precise : 19.05% unbuff = 25% full raid buff
    The GCD cap (1s) is at 50% haste.
    With IV, you need 1.5/1.2=1.25 => 25% haste to reach it.
    With IV and Bloodlust, you need 1.5/(1.2*1.3)=1.5/1.56=0.96 => negative !!! At 0 haste on gear you will be capped !!!!

    If in raid, you can obtain 25% haste or more, it's better all the times to use glyph of Icy Veins.
    The answers is 42
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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    I will precise : 19.05% unbuff = 25% full raid buff
    The GCD cap (1s) is at 50% haste.
    With IV, you need 1.5/1.2=1.25 => 25% haste to reach it.
    With IV and Bloodlust, you need 1.5/(1.2*1.3)=1.5/1.56=0.96 => negative !!! At 0 haste on gear you will be capped !!!!

    If in raid, you can obtain 25% haste or more, it's better all the times to use glyph of Icy Veins.
    Does that mean that if you are unglyphed, you should never use IV during Bloodlust?

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by scuac View Post
    Does that mean that if you are unglyphed, you should never use IV during Bloodlust?
    Yes, you're already GCD capped, it would be a waste.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Guts the Black Swordsman View Post
    Ok so I know you are freaking out about icy veins glyph and how he was able to beat your dps without it, but after looking at the two parses I noticed something that should be obvious that stuck out to me. He received tricks of the trade from his rogue buddy 9 times during that kill. You recieved 0.

    Not saying that explains everything, but it might help to fill in some of the gap.


    edit: someone already mentioned this in the last page, but it seems to have been overlooked.
    if you actually read the OP, he was comparing his own sims, and the other mage just gave him the idea. he's not comparing his parses vs the other mage's.

  20. #60
    The glyph is not supposed to be neither a DPS INcrease or DEcrease. The only reason to have it, is to allow you to use veins during heroism (where as the haste would fuck up casttime)
    That is at least the intention of it, i don't know if some hidden factors like multiple finger procs COULD make it a DPS increase, but it's at least not supposed to be :>

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