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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Right, so fund PP and save money on welfare.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-08 at 05:49 AM ----------



    Ok so cut medicaid. You now have more sick poor people who are sick for longer. Which means they're not as productive. Which means businesses suffer. People make less money. More crime. Which causes more economic disruption.

    Wow it almost seems like sticking our heads in the sand doesn't make problems go away.
    Planned Parenthood has been funded for years now. How is our economy doing? Not so good last I checked.

    If a woman can't afford a box of condoms, odds are she's already relying on the state for support. Removing PP and making her use a free clinic like men in her situation have too changes little.

    Alternatively you could take away PP's funding and replace it with donations.
    Last edited by Twotonsteak; 2012-12-08 at 05:57 AM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    Right, because we're talking mostly about people with jobs here. And even if we were, there's plenty of unemployed ready to take their place.
    Your privilege is showing. You do know you can be working your ass off and still use medicaid and other social services right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Twotonsteak View Post
    Planned Parenthood has been funded for years now. How is our economy doing? Not so good last I checked.
    Are you implying funding Planned Parenthood has a perceptible detrimental effect on the economy?

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Twotonsteak View Post
    Planned Parenthood has been funded for years now. How is our economy doing? Not so good last I checked.

    Care to make another argument that isn't so easily laughed at?
    Why? You haven't actually addressed my point in a rational manner. At no point did I ever say PP was the sole factor of economic health. Nothing you said actually addresses the causal chain I just constructed.

    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    Are you implying funding Planned Parenthood has a perceptible detrimental effect on the economy?
    He's saying that because the economy is bad now that means that less health care for poor people won't hurt their productivity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Your privilege is showing. You do know you can be working your ass off and still use medicaid and other social services right?
    Lol, really "check your privilege" from you? I thought much better of you than that. And I don't care that you "can". We're not talking about productive hard working employees whose employers depend on them for the most part. And again even if we were, if the consequences of unplanned parenthood cause them to be unproductive, they can be replaced by others willing to be productive. That's life. Your choices have consequences. And for the few who have unwanted babies because of bad luck despite being responsible, tough luck. It doesn't sound fair but life's not fair. No one has the right to take money from their neighbors by force to compensate for their bad luck.

    As for your suggestion that we pay people tribute to not be criminals, I find that absurd. That's not the way to govern a society. I would much rather put my money towards protecting my home and insuring it against loss when I'm not there and investing in means to defend myself when I am there than have that money slide down the endless gullet of the exponentially multiplying welfare parasites.

  6. #46
    Well that was a lovely pile of rhetoric. Let's recap what I said.

    You cut PP and medicaid costs go up.

    Cut medicaid and worker productivity drops. (and despite what your saying, its not actually cost effective just to fire people when they get sick and rehire)

    Lower worker productivity hurts the economy.

    Which hurts everyone.

    So where exactly in that chain am I wrong? You can't just ignore something and hope it goes away, as Texas just found out with a 200 million dollar price tag.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    He's saying that because the economy is bad now that means that less health care for poor people won't hurt their productivity.
    Wow, that's even more asinine...

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Why? You haven't actually addressed my point in a rational manner. At no point did I ever say PP was the sole factor of economic health. Nothing you said actually addresses the causal chain I just constructed.



    He's saying that because the economy is bad now that means that less health care for poor people won't hurt their productivity.
    I'm suggesting that you're implications of a detrimental effect on an already collapsing economy is laughable. It's akin to bailing out a yacht with a bucket. At best you only slow the descent.

    Really, though, I would love to hear your simple explanation on the following points...

    1. Why do we have to fund PP for women while men in the same situation have to use a free clinic? (I thought women fought for, and were still fighting for, equal treatment. Not special treatment.)
    2. How do you justify demanding that responsible people pay up for the irresponsible? Because in the end that's what this is all about. Personal responsibility.

    And don't put words in my mouth. I've mentioned before that every metro area has free clinics. These clinics provide most of the same health-care services that PP provides. So cutting PP won't deprive "poor women" of medical care. They'll just have to go to the same place men do. (The tragedy, I know.)

  9. #49
    So because the economy isn't great that suddenly means that worker productivity doesn't matter? How does that make sense?
    1. Why do we have to fund PP for women while men in the same situation have to use a free clinic? (I thought women fought for, and were still fighting for, equal treatment. Not special treatment.)
    When you develop a female reproductive system and everything that entails I'll take this more seriously.
    2. How do you justify demanding that responsible people pay up for the irresponsible? Because in the end that's what this is all about. Personal responsibility.
    The assumption here is that anyone who uses PP is irresponsible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    You need to prove that. At present that's just your baseless opinion.
    It's morality, you can't prove it.

    Bergtau's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability that somebody will mention Godwin's Law approaches 1.
    Hitler wasn't all bad, I mean, he DID kill Hitler.
    An accident is something that you did not mean to do at all. A mistake is something that you regret doing.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Bergtau View Post
    It's morality, you can't prove it.
    You can make arguments supporting your case though.

  12. #52
    The Lightbringer Speaknoevil's Avatar
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    I love abortions, more people should get them. Who wants to start a Texas abortion fund?
    Silence fills the empty grave, now that I have gone.
    But my mind is not at rest, for questions linger on.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Well that was a lovely pile of rhetoric. Let's recap what I said.

    You cut PP and medicaid costs go up.

    Cut medicaid and worker productivity drops. (and despite what your saying, its not actually cost effective just to fire people when they get sick and rehire)

    Lower worker productivity hurts the economy.

    Which hurts everyone.

    So where exactly in that chain am I wrong? You can't just ignore something and hope it goes away, as Texas just found out with a 200 million dollar price tag.
    I know I'm talking in pipe dreams here, but the fact that it's so expensive to fire and hire is another part of the problem. And I"m mostly interested in the abortions more than the sick, but truthfully I think you're exaggerating the necessity of state funding for the sick. You do not need a $400 doctor visit when you catch a cold. The cost most "sicknesses" have on productivity is far less than the cost of "treating" it. And this can be fairly easily scaled upward: the more serious the illness, the more it costs the employer in productivity, but also the more it costs to treat.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    Lol, really "check your privilege" from you? I thought much better of you than that. And I don't care that you "can". We're not talking about productive hard working employees whose employers depend on them for the most part. And again even if we were, if the consequences of unplanned parenthood cause them to be unproductive, they can be replaced by others willing to be productive. That's life. Your choices have consequences. And for the few who have unwanted babies because of bad luck despite being responsible, tough luck. It doesn't sound fair but life's not fair. No one has the right to take money from their neighbors by force to compensate for their bad luck.
    Do you know what's worse than to 'take money from their neighbors by force to compensate for their bad luck'? Saying "Fuck you" to people and deciding to throw them to the wolves. I don't care how morally righteous you think you are about the money, you can't possibly think it's morally righteous to allow that to happen.

    As for your suggestion that we pay people tribute to not be criminals, I find that absurd. That's not the way to govern a society. I would much rather put my money towards protecting my home and insuring it against loss when I'm not there and investing in means to defend myself when I am there than have that money slide down the endless gullet of the exponentially multiplying welfare parasites.
    If it worked and ended up costing less money, why the hell would you even care?

    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    You can make arguments supporting your case though.
    Not any argument that will change the fact that it's going to come down to individual opinion. Pretty much pointless to argue over it when one side would inevitably resort to ignoring the opposition and dick-waving.
    Last edited by Bergtau; 2012-12-08 at 06:20 AM.

    Bergtau's Law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability that somebody will mention Godwin's Law approaches 1.
    Hitler wasn't all bad, I mean, he DID kill Hitler.
    An accident is something that you did not mean to do at all. A mistake is something that you regret doing.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Speaknoevil View Post
    I love abortions, more people should get them. Who wants to start a Texas abortion fund?
    I agree but certainly you see a difference between "starting a Texas abortion fund" and forcing people to pay for it (and for the government bureaucrats who implement it)?

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    Wow, that's even more asinine...
    Learn to read.

    Because I've already said that every metro area has free clinics.

    I understand that considering things like budgets, deficits, personal responsibility, and gender equality are largely irrelevant (in your eyes) when compared to your moral outrage. But moral outrage doesn't fund the country. Moral outrage doesn't replace personal responsibility. And moral outrage doesn't make right the hypocrisy of demanding gender equality while, at the same time, demanding that Federal and State funding be giving to a "womens clinic" while the men have to use the free clinic.

  17. #57
    The Lightbringer Speaknoevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    I agree but certainly you see a difference between "starting a Texas abortion fund" and forcing people to pay for it (and for the government bureaucrats who implement it)?
    Some people need help, if that includes paying for their abortions/birth control, all the better.
    Silence fills the empty grave, now that I have gone.
    But my mind is not at rest, for questions linger on.

  18. #58
    Planned Parenthood is actually a program I know little about so anyone mind explaining what it is to me and the purpose of it.

    I have heard politicians "debate" over it but more just of a, "he wants to cut planned parenthood", "planned parenthood is bad/good", etc.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    but truthfully I think you're exaggerating the necessity of state funding for the sick. You do not need a $400 doctor visit when you catch a cold. The cost most "sicknesses" have on productivity is far less than the cost of "treating" it.
    Either because 1) healthcare costs in the United States is insane, or 2) you are factually wrong about the cost-benefit of treatment.

  20. #60
    I know I'm talking in pipe dreams here, but the fact that it's so expensive to fire and hire is another part of the problem.
    There is literally no way in which firing someone when they have to miss work and hiring someone else to replace them is cost effective regardless of how little regulation there is unless you're talking about day labor. That's just basic business.

    You haven't actually addressed anything in the causal chain. Less health care means lower productivity.

    I do love how you're trying to spin this story into more right wing grandstanding about government spending.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

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