[Arcane] Invocation vs IW

[Grumash]

Id like the opinion of someone who has been there done that; my guild is ATM working on visier (l2dodge attenuation p2 fags), and I am curious as to which of these talents is superior on fights where RoP is not possible. I was using invocation on visier but swapped to RoP to try it out and was about 10k higher. Maybe I am not managing invoke well, or is it just that shitty for it, and if so, is IW better even on fights where there isnt sustained damage but still require large ammounts of movement making RoP not feasible (mainly thinking sha of fear here)?

PS: im referring to heroic of all the fights in question.

---------- Post added 2012-12-08 at 02:12 AM ----------

Anyone????

[Imnick]

Incanter's Ward is very difficult to work into the Arcane rotation, due to it's tricky and inconsistent mana return compared to the far more predictable nature of the other two talents.
In addition, the buff has a shorter duration than the cooldown, so you will have low mana at the same time as having no increased damage buff. This leads to doubled poor performance from Arcane with this talent compared to the other two talents.

Frankly it's my opinion that Mana should be completely decoupled from the Level 90 talents and passive mana effect of standing in a Rune of Power just made a baseline effect for Arcane. It doesn't add anything for Frost or Fire and it doesn't work for the one spec it has an effect on.

[Grumash]

Well I guess that means IW is out, so this leads to another question. On fights like garalon where you move nearly all the time I assume Invocation is better? If this is true, what I have been doing is 6 stack camping until about halfway on the buff, then i burn to 35% and invoke. Is it better to just stay at 6stack camp the whole time? I use scorch and this usually means 3-4 scorces or AM procs in between every ablast, and never clearing with abarr. Am I doing something wrong, or should i just go frost as i gem haste for arcane (I prefer it to mastery, and it feels superior in numbers too, regardless of what simcraft says)?

I am not interested in playing fire because gemming and reforging for haste wouldnt be very good as fire, and Im not changing gems and reforges every fight.

also, your sig is kinda funny, as I play arcane, am usually near top dps, and my guild is 6/6H msv and 3/6H HoF

[Shangalar]

Actually, on fights like Garalon Incanter's Ward is mostly the only option with a potential use for Rune of Power. Incanter's Ward can be used every time as soon as it comes off cooldown and it's in my opinion the optimal choice on that fight. Get up to 6 Charges, Incanter's Ward, burst a bit, drop charges, build up charges, Incanter's Ward, repeat all... it can be done throughout the entire fight.

[Rinoa]

I'm also using Incanter's Ward on Will of the Emperor and getting quite decent results with it. As I am soaking sparks with Blink I have to move a lot, so RoP isn't an option.

[Imnick]

If you have to kite Garalon, Incanter's Ward really is the only choice, bad or not.
If you are not assigned that task you can probably get away with RoP, and even slightly sub-optimal usage will probably provide better results than IW.

[DreamSpyre]

The only fight in the game that you wouldn't use rune on is Heroic Will. Not saying you couldn't, but we're such good soakers that we should always be used that way. Garalon is very rune friendly, if you kite, then just use scorch, your dot, and barrage on cd. You can even weave in ABs between dropping your trail if you want to risk it. Other than that if you sit in the right spot there is next to no movement for 90% of the fight.

[voltaa]

If you have to kite Garalon, Incanter's Ward really is the only choice, bad or not.
If you are not assigned that task you can probably get away with RoP, and even slightly sub-optimal usage will probably provide better results than IW.

I use rune even when I have to kite garalon, it is such a short time and so high movement that you can't dps much anyways so why gimp yourself the rest of the fight?
Also Grumash if you are splitting the echo and the boss to seperate sides of the room I don't see why rune wouldn't be a viable option for vizier, though I think during progression the more flexible option would be more beneficial

[DreamSpyre]

Oh and to add for zorlok in particular, for phase 1 attenuation you can use AE to keep your stacks while running and scorching, as soon as it ends replace your rune and it's business as usual, phase 2 you can't really do that, but almost nobody is really able to dps during that, so it evens out.

[Grumash]

The only fight in the game that you wouldn't use rune on is Heroic Will. Not saying you couldn't, but we're such good soakers that we should always be used that way. Garalon is very rune friendly, if you kite, then just use scorch, your dot, and barrage on cd. You can even weave in ABs between dropping your trail if you want to risk it. Other than that if you sit in the right spot there is next to no movement for 90% of the fight.

Can you tell me how i would go about using RoP on garalon then? this is the fight that tends to give me the most trouble, as there is quite a bit of CONSTANT movement, and I also kite (usually only once a fight, but how bad would my dps loss be if i was using RoP?). Do I just place a new rune every 15s?

---------- Post added 2012-12-08 at 08:59 PM ----------

I use rune even when I have to kite garalon, it is such a short time and so high movement that you can't dps much anyways so why gimp yourself the rest of the fight?
Also Grumash if you are splitting the echo and the boss to seperate sides of the room I don't see why rune wouldn't be a viable option for vizier, though I think during progression the more flexible option would be more beneficial

Yeah i swapped to RoP, much better dps now sorry if opening post was not clear.

---------- Post added 2012-12-08 at 09:00 PM ----------

Oh and to add for zorlok in particular, for phase 1 attenuation you can use AE to keep your stacks while running and scorching, as soon as it ends replace your rune and it's business as usual, phase 2 you can't really do that, but almost nobody is really able to dps during that, so it evens out.

...GENIUS! thanks! I had been dropping stacks with ABarr right before moving with attenuation, I will try the explosion now

[DreamSpyre]

Can you tell me how i would go about using RoP on garalon then? this is the fight that tends to give me the most trouble, as there is quite a bit of CONSTANT movement, and I also kite (usually only once a fight, but how bad would my dps loss be if i was using RoP?). Do I just place a new rune every 15s?

...GENIUS! thanks! I had been dropping stacks with ABarr right before moving with attenuation, I will try the explosion now

If your kiters are doing things correctly, you can basically sit in the center of the room and really never have to move much at all. Whenever you do have to move, just watch how he's moving and eventually you start to figure out how to place Rune so that you have the most possible time to sit still in that spot. Basically whenever you move, you want to place rune behind him, closer to the leg in the middle of the room. If you do it right, you can sit in that spot until he makes a full circuit around the room, in which case you'll just do the same thing again. When kiting you're basically just going to be doing Scorch, Scorch, Barrage repeat, and refresh dots when needed, you won't lose mana, and your dps is already going to be low so you don't lose much by not using the rune at that time. After you're done it's back to sitting still and rocking him.

Yeah, Zor'lok is a real pain with attenuation movement, but keeping up my stacks definitely was a major improvement in DPS. Phase 2 Heroic you're just kinda screwed regardless during it, But with the short cast time, no CD on Rune you won't lose as much as you'd expect especially since most of your other DPS'ers won't be doing much either.