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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    Again, in my example their decision was a JOINT (emphasizing this because people keep missing this) one, it wasn't the wife making any unilateral decisions on her own. That changes my example entirely...I'm sure things like your example happen, but that wasn't my example.

    To counter your counterexample, I could have said that the husband asked her to move out with him early (before finding a job, etc), or asked her to quit her job to stay at home with the kids while their young "because it's better for the children" or any number of reasons, but that would also change the scope of my example.
    Sure it was better for the couple so she obviously thought their lives would improve financially by the guy taking the job. The problem with this is that after they decide to not be together anymore that anything she gained while they were married wasn't good enough compensation during the time they were married. I guess women don't look at it that way because they don't have to with how laws benefit them sitting on their ass and waiting until they day it's a good idea to leave since they basically built someone up they feel they are entitled to freeload off of forever.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Revak View Post
    Alimony and child custody is just plain ridiculous. I'm sure it works fine for some but not for a lot of people.

    One of my best friends was married and has a daughter. He had a great photography job making twice as much a year as his wife (who worked in retail) but still he was only around 50k/year. He was happy. His wife cheated on him and then wanted a divorce when they stopped getting along after that.

    He has never been in trouble and has always been an all around "good guy". He had a good lawyer and by the time they went to court she was already pregnant with another kid with someone elses child (whom she wasn't married to). Not only did he not get custody, he was ordered to pay half his earnings in child support. On top of that the times that she "allowed" him to have custody interfered with his work and he ended up quitting his job for a lesser job at a manufacturing plant near his home that he ended up renting when he moved out after the divorce.

    Today he still works there and has very little and has remained single d/t how hard this has been on him, but does get to see his daughter regularly (which he is happy about). She is on her 3rd marriage and has 4 kids. He still pays child support. This guy went from a good family man with a good job to a single man with nothing and no money b/c his wife cheated on him, wanted a divorce, and demanded excessive child support. Then the courts gave it to her.

    That's a problem with the system. One example from one person I know. I'm sure my own experiences are not unique.
    Let me just say I am truly sorry to hear your friend's story.

    Such a tragedy how things went for him. Horrible.

    Just plain and pure injustice what happened to him...

  3. #103
    Sure it was better for the couple so she obviously thought their lives would improve financially by the guy taking the job. The problem with this is that after they decide to not be together anymore that anything she gained while they were married wasn't good enough compensation during the time they were married. I guess women don't look at it that way because they don't have to with how laws benefit them sitting on their ass and waiting until they day it's a good idea to leave since they basically built someone up they feel they are entitled to freeload off of forever.
    Is it really good enough compensation if her career is permanently derailed due to the career decisions made together jointly that ultimately benefited them as a couple but massively affected her own career prospects? 2 or 3 "sacrifices" by moving where the hubby needs to move to in order to get that CEO or VP gig really has a long term adverse effect on a career, particularly if her career was in a competitive field like business.

    Some women and men are freeloaders and abuse the system but not all do. In an ideal world a system like alimony would protect spouses from freeloading while also giving something that is a semblance of equitable compensation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackmoves View Post
    Yes that was a thin limb, I do, and we both work. Child care here costs a nickle, it's highly subsidized, so thats not a concern whatsoever, we also got 480 days of paid parental leave, that the parents can split as they like(for the most part), with a garanteed place at work as you get back from the leave. We also have among the highest marginal tax rates in the world to pay for all this (good) shit.

    I think this is simply cultural, we do not have any kind of spousal support system here. So it seems out of wack to me.
    Ahh okay your pov is making more sense to me now. Yeah we don't have any of that stuff here, the US support system for child care and parental leave is nonexistent. Also the American job market is cutthroat and it can be difficult to reenter the job market after extended leaves...women used to get fired here for getting pregnant, although that is illegal here now.

    Man I really need to find a nice unmarried Swedish guy so I can move over there... :P Kidding obviously but those benefits would be sweet.
    Last edited by Celista; 2012-12-08 at 04:03 PM.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    Is it really good enough compensation if her career is permanently derailed due to the career decisions made together jointly that ultimately benefited them as a couple but massively affected her own career prospects? 2 or 3 "sacrifices" by moving where the hubby needs to move to in order to get that CEO or VP gig really has a long term adverse effect on a career, particularly if her career was in a competitive field like business.

    Some women and men are freeloaders and abuse the system but not all do. In an ideal world a system like alimony would protect spouses from freeloading while also giving something that is a semblance of equitable compensation.


    Ahh okay your pov is making more sense to me now. Yeah we don't have any of that stuff here, the US support system for child care and parental leave is nonexistent. Also the American job market is cutthroat and it can be difficult to reenter the job market after extended leaves...women used to get fired here for getting pregnant, although that is illegal here now.

    Man I really need to find a nice unmarried Swedish guy so I can move over there... :P Kidding obviously but those benefits would be sweet.
    It keeps sounding more like free meal ticket to me the more you go on. A CEO or VP position in a company requires a serious commitment. It can takes years for an executives vision to take hold and a company to start really rocketing to the top. If the lady is into the business field like you said she has plenty of time to get something going on her own to make living. If she's with a guy that successful she doesn't have to go out seeking a mentor like many others do. If she works hard enough she might end up making millions on her own.

    Then again does she really have to? We can debate different scenarios and job offer all day long. The excuses will remain the same and with a similar outcome.

  5. #105
    Seems to be an incompetent judge, ordering the man to pay more than he is earning. Or bad / not specific-enough laws. Or both.

    First things first: I completly agree with child support up until first job. If you put a child into the world, you have to pay for it. Fair enough. MAYBE Alimony in the first 3 years after birth (thats the time a kid need most care/time). Thats it.

    Here in germany, we have a nice thing called "Düsseldorfer Tabelle" (Dusseldorf Chart) , which the judge and all parties have to consider. In fact, its a list, where there are several income stages. Along with each income stage, there is a fixed summ of child support the man has to pay. Not more, not less.

    But: There is a minimum amount, which cannot be taken from you (around 1000 euros in 2013, 1300 $) - no matter how many kids /wifes want money from you. Example: you earn 2000 dollars a month (AFTER taxes) - so up to 700 can be seized from you. But at this income stage, its more likely it will be around 350.

    Sounds fair enough.

    I do agree however: 100000 Dollars a year is nonsense. really.
    Last edited by Bleda100; 2012-12-08 at 04:23 PM.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Barnabas View Post
    It keeps sounding more like free meal ticket to me the more you go on. A CEO or VP position in a company requires a serious commitment. It can takes years for an executives vision to take hold and a company to start really rocketing to the top. If the lady is into the business field like you said she has plenty of time to get something going on her own to make living. If she's with a guy that successful she doesn't have to go out seeking a mentor like many others do. If she works hard enough she might end up making millions on her own.
    Yes and no. She could probably get something going to a point, but unless she was an entrepreneur or something similar with a degree of flexibility (i.e., can up and move at a moment's notice and not lose her job) then it is going to affect her career path and affect her personally, although how much is up in the air. I agree that there are a lot of hypothetical factors to consider in this hypothetical example...that has gone on for some time now in this thread. Lol.

    In retrospect I wish I had revered the genders in my example, might have generated some different responses.

  7. #107
    Elemental Lord Gheld's Avatar
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    The whole purpose of alimony is to provide a social safety net for partners (because I knew a chick whose husband took her for alimony and child support) who become unemployed or unemployable because of doing the whole "stay at home parent" thing. But I think if somebody is perfectly capable of working, even if they go back to flipping burgers then they should not be eligible for alimony.

    If there's a child involved, child support should be decided separately.
    It shouldn't matter if one partner had an affair.
    It shouldn't matter if one partner was abusive.
    The amount of alimony decided should be nothing more than that which is required for subsistence.

    Because none of that shit, other than physical abuse (but is not a financial offense), should be any business of the law. It should be your legal right, and your inalienable freedom to fuck any other consenting adult. And in the 21st century, man or woman, it's your own stupid ass move if you throw your own career under the bus just to get married.

  8. #108
    Even with my friends situation I still believe child support is necessary. I think alimony has created a beast in the system and that has also led to child support not being proper in a lot of cases.

    If it's a mutual decision to divorce then alimony shouldn't be considered. The divorce should be planned around both parties being able to live afterwards and splitting up their mutual belongings.

    If it's a divorce decided by one person then there should absolutely be no alimony to that person who wanted the divorce. If they want out of the lifestyle they are living then they should not be rewarded for wanting out. The other person who did not want the divorce should receive some alimony. But a reasonable amount. Enough to get back into the work force and not be a burden to society with welfare or food stamps. Marriage is "for better or for worse".

    When a child is involved I feel the alimony should be a separate thing. If a parent wants nothing to do with their child then they should be paying 1/2 of the costs it takes to raise that child with child support to the other parent. If both parents split custody and have the child half the time each, no child support should be involved. From there just determine how much one or the other provides based upon how much time they have the child with the determined amount going to the parent who has the child more to assist in the difference.


    All my opinions of course.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Gheld View Post
    The whole purpose of alimony is to provide a social safety net for partners
    Actually the purpose of alimony is to maintain a comparable standard of living for a long term spouse. Whether that is a good purpose or not is of course a separate question, though in the majority of cases, I don't see it as a big problem as such (barring extremes).

    Quote Originally Posted by Bleda100 View Post
    Seems to be an incompetent judge, ordering the man to pay more than he is earning. Or bad / not specific-enough laws. Or both.
    Or a alimony campaign advocate being liberal with the truth.

  10. #110
    Bloodsail Admiral bekilrwale's Avatar
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    How is it reasonable at all to expect him to pay more than he makes? And is 100k really necessary? Does she plan on living off only the alimony?
    "Death is not kind. It's dark, black as far as you can see, and you're all alone."

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    Man I really need to find a nice unmarried Swedish guy so I can move over there... :P Kidding obviously but those benefits would be sweet.
    Hey we are not a bad catch, we got uncircumcised penises though, so that would probably scare you off!

    Seriously though, yes I think most people value the pro's with our system quite highly. It makes things a lot easier for everyone, esp those who are lower income takers.
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  12. #112
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    A cursory examination shows none of those references any actual verifiable court case. In fact all of them are disgruntled men complaining about their own experiences.

    I don't know, seems like a problem of this supposed magnitude ("The fact that, when it reaches the courts, the judges have such leeway to pull this shit is beyond reproach") ought to have some sort of actual, legal evidence you could bring up.
    Um....are you sure you'd like proof/to read/hear this stuff? I mean I know you're all about facts, but the proving points are liable to make anyone's common sense, decency, and sense of justice want to vomit.....

    Well, you asked so make prepared to disgust in one's own sexuality....

    Although I don't subscribe everything this guy says, and talks about, I will say this is an interesting conversation and topic. And certainly is on topic.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6D2UmE7Yd8 at 6minutes in it starts to get really, really exact about this topic.
    Into, and the meat of the topic is in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhdX0...ture=endscreen
    Carries into http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=...ture=endscreen

    I know it will be tempting to overlook the topic and contents due to this guy's flamboyant style...but you have to admit he's fairly well spoken on the topic.
    "There are other sites on the internet designed for people to make friends or relationships. This isn't one" Darsithis Super Moderator
    Proof that the mmochamp community can be a bitter and lonely place. What a shame.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal View Post
    Well, you asked so make prepared to disgust in one's own sexuality....
    I asked for legal cases and decisions, since the point Laize made was about judges abusing their power. Not youtube videos of people saying stuff you agree with (not saying that's all it is, but 3 seconds of it looks like just some guy with a camera).


    disgust in one's own sexuality....
    Yes yes bash a whole gender over the actions of some.


    but you have to admit he's fairly well spoken on the topic.
    Generally speaking I don't care to watch youtube videos. If he references any actual case, please let me know.

  14. #114
    Do women have to pay that if the child is with the man?

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    A guy gets sentenced to pay $104,000/yr in alimony and another $3300/month in child support and someone saying she should do something to earn the alimony check is the sexist one?
    did you read the article? - she isnt being paid because he has no money, she is disabled, the problem is that the court set the alimony far to high, then imprisoned the man for not paying, it wasnt the lady

  16. #116
    No comment on child support but the alimony bit is so retarded. Since a marriage certificate is nothing more than a financial contract, all marriages should require the couple to agree upon a plan for distribution of assets in the event of a divorce.

  17. #117
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    I asked for legal cases and decisions, since the point Laize made was about judges abusing their power. Not youtube videos of people saying stuff you agree with (not saying that's all it is, but 3 seconds of it looks like just some guy with a camera).

    He gives reference, even has links right there, what more did you need? Should I come over and click the links to the actual items for you? Or can't you make five minutes of effort?


    Yes yes bash a whole gender over the actions of some.

    No, not at all, (easy now...easy.), it's just a fact, we all feel disgust at the poor deeds of our sex. At least, all of us with a sense of decency.


    Generally speaking I don't care to watch youtube videos. If he references any actual case, please let me know.
    Too much effort? Or is it that you know it's just going to be painfully distasteful to you?
    I do understand how this guy would turn your stomach....but come on, five minutes of watching a video in the interest of a conversation....
    I won't press the issue, but I do wish you'd at least give it a chance without your exact, and limiting knee jerk reaction....(for me? pleeeeeeese ((small stupid child eyes...possibly with mini-tears and puppy dog-esk stupidity))).

    fyi: he provides his own links usually below his videos to all articles and documents, cases, and paper publications involved in his conversations so you may do a little reading to further the understanding of such topics.
    "There are other sites on the internet designed for people to make friends or relationships. This isn't one" Darsithis Super Moderator
    Proof that the mmochamp community can be a bitter and lonely place. What a shame.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    If your wife gets into an accident and become paralysed, should you be able to divorce her to avoid paying her hospital bills? There's a difference between saying the system needs to be improved, and that it needs to be gone completely.
    There are state and federal welfare programs which are created for just these situations. The welfare of individuals unable to provide for themselves in society is the responsibility of the government, not another individual. Alimony is wrong and should be abolished completely. The state and federal government can help the woman get back on her feet just as they do with any other person that finds themselves without a job or in otherwise troubling circumstances.

  19. #119
    Perfect example of why not to get married, she leaves, you lose, you leave, you lose.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Threshold10 View Post
    Perfect example of why not to get married, she leaves, you lose, you leave, you lose.
    Not with a pre-nup

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