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  1. #1

    Is MM that far behind at all?

    As the title says, is MM that far behind at all? is it a viable choice?

  2. #2
    It is not viable. It's PvE rotation is not fun, either. I just don't see the appeal in the lack of a defined rotation. They need to define whether they want hunters to use Aimed Shot as a focus dump or Arcane Shot. They need to get rid of the several talents clogging up the rotation. It's damage right now is just not great. You'll probably put in twice the effort into achieving the proper rotation and still be behind many other specs. With BiS gear it might surpass some specs, but who knows. BM is supreme and Survival is very decent post-Serpent Sting buff, and is king of AoE.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Penguintamer View Post
    It is not viable. It's PvE rotation is not fun, either. I just don't see the appeal in the lack of a defined rotation. They need to define whether they want hunters to use Aimed Shot as a focus dump or Arcane Shot. They need to get rid of the several talents clogging up the rotation. It's damage right now is just not great. You'll probably put in twice the effort into achieving the proper rotation and still be behind many other specs. With BiS gear it might surpass some specs, but who knows. BM is supreme and Survival is very decent post-Serpent Sting buff, and is king of AoE.
    Huh? The thing making MM wonderful is that you have 2 focus dumps, AiS when under haste effects and AS when not.
    And what's "hard" with the rotation?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusk View Post
    Huh? The thing making MM wonderful is that you have 2 focus dumps, AiS when under haste effects and AS when not.
    And what's "hard" with the rotation?
    Nothing, but its still 'more complicated' than SV - and it seems as a big problem for many players.
    Either way its still true that it isn't really viable spec right now.

  5. #5
    Not hard per se but I think what he meant was if you roll your face on your keyboard as BM, you will still do good (Kripparrian showed that by afk'ing majority of an LFR fight and still being in the top of the meters). Whereas, you would do horrible as MM. MM has a higher rotation penalty than the other two.

    To answer the op, yes it is viable now with the buffs it got, but it is still the lowest hunter spec. So the real question is, why would you ever want to go MM ? I don't think any raid would require low dps or that the raid leader would say 'dude you're doing way too much dmg, switch to a shittier spec'.

    If the fight requires high single target damage, BM is ~5k+ dps ahead of a perfectly played MM. If the fight requires aoe, nothing even comes close to SV. If the fight requires cleaving, again SV. If the fight has a lot of target switching, SV or even BM with blink strike. MM just can't catch up to the other two specs in any situation. So why use it.

  6. #6
    Stood in the Fire Daieon's Avatar
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    MM being more complicated makes SV and BM a lot more appealing to most. Why play the harder spec that does less damage?

    inb4 "having fun"

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Saoron View Post
    Not hard per se but I think what he meant was if you roll your face on your keyboard as BM, you will still do good (Kripparrian showed that by afk'ing majority of an LFR fight and still being in the top of the meters).
    That doesn't show anything about any spec, he, or any player who is above 'awful' in player skill could do that with the majority of current raiding specs.

  8. #8
    What are you talking about ? I said he "afk'd". Does player skill seep through the keyboard and embed itself as artificial intelligence that plays for you when you're away ? Skill has nothing to do with it. Majority of your damage comes from your pet. He simply spammed all cooldowns, and let his pet simply attack and he auto shot.

    But that's all besides the main point, BM is the top damage spec out of all three and is really easy to play and has very little penalty for messing up the 'rotation'. MM is the lowest damage spec, and has a high penalty.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Penguintamer View Post
    It is not viable. It's PvE rotation is not fun, either. I just don't see the appeal in the lack of a defined rotation. They need to define whether they want hunters to use Aimed Shot as a focus dump or Arcane Shot. They need to get rid of the several talents clogging up the rotation. It's damage right now is just not great. You'll probably put in twice the effort into achieving the proper rotation and still be behind many other specs. With BiS gear it might surpass some specs, but who knows. BM is supreme and Survival is very decent post-Serpent Sting buff, and is king of AoE.
    Its not optimal, but it sure as hell is viable. If you believe the sims, its better than ret pallies.....

    The buff brings it to almost as good as pre buffed BM. On aimed shot vs arcane.... how is it unclear? You use aimed shot during CA, Arcane shot otherwise unless you have enough haste buffs to warrant it. Fire mages in cata would spam pyroblast during high haste moments and I never saw complaining about that....

  10. #10
    MM is a shitty spec. It does less single target than BM and Surv and does less AOE than surv. The numbers on the spec's dps potential are kind of skewed because the CA phase props up the dps/damge of that spec. But in reality (especially if you're doing heroic content) it is inflated/fluffer dps that does not matter at all. The spec needs to be redesigned and brought up to par. I wouldn't mind it being a suitable alternative to single target that was on par with BM with subpar AOE, it still would have a niche/use. Right now MM has no niche and there is no reason to use the spec. The spec is a jack-of-no-trades and master of nothing. It has some cool and unique abilities but that doesn't mean anything when the damage is not there.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Nangz View Post
    Its not optimal, but it sure as hell is viable. If you believe the sims, its better than ret pallies.....

    The buff brings it to almost as good as pre buffed BM. On aimed shot vs arcane.... how is it unclear? You use aimed shot during CA, Arcane shot otherwise unless you have enough haste buffs to warrant it. Fire mages in cata would spam pyroblast during high haste moments and I never saw complaining about that....
    If you belileve the sims... Well, happens.

    MM is not viable. Personally, I love the rotation, reminds me the golden age of MM (middle Cata). Way higher focus regen makes you constantly think how to use it properly and not waste too much. That's what rotations should look like - a bit strict, but not brainless either.

    MM is just bad because of raw damage. Aimed Shot deals too small, Chimera Shot deals too small, Steady Shot doesn't deal any. Simply put. Fixing the raw dps fixes the spec, but currently we are at the bottom line of recount.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Nangz View Post
    Its not optimal, but it sure as hell is viable.
    That is like saying i'm not gay but I sure as hell like men. It doesn't make sense. Any raid leader would never allow a non-optimal spec being played by a raider for progression. UNLESS there is some utility or ability that spec brings to the table that the others don't. But MM brings nothing to the table that BM or SV can't do better. It used to be the interrupt spec, but now that's available to everyone. It used to bring the ap buff, now all specs do. There is literally no reason for ever going MM in any situation in progression raiding, ever. If it's not optimal, it automatically means it is not viable as far as progression goes.
    But if you're in a totally casual guild, then the difference in damage wouldn't matter.

    So going back on point, @op, if you're in a casual guild, you can play MM for sure. You will do decent damage. But if you're in a progression raiding guild, it is not viable.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-09 at 04:17 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nangz View Post
    Fire mages in cata would spam pyroblast during high haste moments and I never saw complaining about that....
    There was/is never a moment of high enough haste to warrant the use of a manually casted pyroblast. No one did/does that. Besides on alysrazor or sinestra.

  13. #13
    Short Answer to the OP question: No, is not that far behind as people want to believe.

    Long Answer: Most of the simulations agree that is almost as good as SV or better, with both specs just a bit behind BM. (after the buff at top ilevel seems that BM and MM are almost equal with SV slightly above). http://www.noxxic.com/wow/pve/hunter/marksmanship

    The answer for the bad reputation for MM can be found in several points:

    1. MM is the one spec where the ilevel change does the difference. At raid entry levels the difference between BM and MM is huge (more than 10% DPS, even more), this difference gets reduced with the rise in ilevel and it seems that in some point MM will be again the spec of choice or just behind SV (but can take a while) as BM doesnt scale as good.

    2. Stats on BM and MM are diametrical oposed. This can seem irrelevant but most people run the test, dummys or boss fights with the same gear for both specs and i can tell you that a MM spec with BM gear can do 20% less DPS just because low haste and high mastery.

    3. The rotation in MM is really complex to master. While BM seems like a "hit the refreshed cooldown" and pet does more dps than the hunter (im not kidding, Unselect the "merge pets with owners" option on recount and the top DPS hunter alone does less dmg than some tanks and even monk healers") MM needs some planning and resources management. This can be very tricky to master and execute properly and you loose more dmg missing a shot in MM than in any other spec.

    4. As Frostheim (WoW insider hunter writer) said: The best players will play the top DPS Spec. That means that top players while using BM scores DPS that a regular guy cant even dream, even with the same spec and gear. If regular players do low dmg (comparatively) using the top spec, what can you get when you try to compare the dmg that average people do with MM versus the dmg that the top players do with BM. http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/11/08/sc...nship-hunters/

    5. Yes MM is viable, No MM is not the top spec. At the end people just see this, from the same mindframe that brings us "Dailies are mandatory" comes the thought that to be competitive you have to use the single best and nothing else. If you aim for the best DPS, use BM, period.

    T.L. D.R. MM is not that far behind, but is behind. If you aim for the best dps there is, dont use it. If you are in a regular guild where you dont requiere to milk every drop from your dps it can be good and fun but expect to practice it a few times before you do competitive DPS.
    Last edited by Ladern; 2012-12-10 at 05:28 AM.

  14. #14
    I agree with what Ladern said.

    But the numbers you linked ladern, are used with normal 496 ilvl gear, not bis gear. With full t14 heroic gear the gap widens considerably.

    MM may seem to scale slowly but the real factor affecting MM dps is the weapon. MM is extremely weapon dependant so at low gear levels it will perform poorly compared to BM or SV with the same weapon. Just swap the weapon out for a higher ilvl one, and MM will sky rocket and close the gap. But, even considering all that, with the best weapon available and full heroic t14, in a patchwerk encounter the dps values are:

    BM: 119,961 DPS
    SV: 117,301 DPS
    MM: 115,906 DPS

  15. #15
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...%A9kaie/simple

    i find MM fun, the roation is good and steady, and i still top my guilds damage meters.

    only conserns is the lack of burst when target switching on Elegon and similar bosses, and AoE.

    Single target fights MM is 100% viable.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Saoron View Post
    That is like saying i'm not gay but I sure as hell like men. It doesn't make sense. Any raid leader would never allow a non-optimal spec being played by a raider for progression. UNLESS there is some utility or ability that spec brings to the table that the others don't. But MM brings nothing to the table that BM or SV can't do better. It used to be the interrupt spec, but now that's available to everyone. It used to bring the ap buff, now all specs do. There is literally no reason for ever going MM in any situation in progression raiding, ever. If it's not optimal, it automatically means it is not viable as far as progression goes.
    But if you're in a totally casual guild, then the difference in damage wouldn't matter.

    So going back on point, @op, if you're in a casual guild, you can play MM for sure. You will do decent damage. But if you're in a progression raiding guild, it is not viable.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-09 at 04:17 AM ----------



    There was/is never a moment of high enough haste to warrant the use of a manually casted pyroblast. No one did/does that. Besides on alysrazor or sinestra.
    From dictionary.com

    Viable: practicable; workable: a viable alternative.

    From google.com ( dictionary.com had no results)
    Optimal: Best or most favorable; optimum.

    Gay and liking men are synonyms. Given the mage example I would say that frost is viable, but since arcane is higher, it is optimal. ( Given patchwerk fight). What it comes down to is what you consider high enough dps to kill any given boss. This is certainly subjective and depends on the boss but its likely clear that you can kill every single boss in this game with a properly played and geared MM hunter in your raid.

    Being progression and casual is an attitude, choosing to play a spec that you like over one that does xxx number of dps ( as long as it isn't TOO much) isn't wrong. Here is a Method parse where a both a frost mage and an arcane mage dps. Clearly he should go arcane because numbers right? Wrong. Maybe he was doing a different job than the arcane mage? Maybe, but not according to their damage target breakdown. Its very similar with slightly higher add damage on the frost mage.

    You throw out this term casual as if it is supposed to be an insult for people who don't play well or don't care about doing well. If everyone swapping to the "top spec" everytime it changed, you wouldn't see a single hunter in top raiding guilds as they would have rerolled mage. So you can play what class you want but not the spec? what?

    And as for my pyroblast example, I was talking about alysrazor and sinestra as you mentioned. The context is everything as I was referring to the similarities of hard casting aimed shot outside of CA phase. ( You would never do that unless you had multiple haste buffs, which you won't have unless you're playing wrong to begin with.)

    In your next post you say that the gap widens considerably between BM and MM, i'm not sure what you consider to be "considerably", but the number is 3%. Again I ask, if 3% is enough to justify not bringing a MM hunter, why bring any hunter at all over a mage? The difference between arcane and BM is over 12%!

    A Ladern said so well, its not the top spec ( optimal) but its certainly is viable. Is it harder? I disagree with that but difficulty is entirely subjective.
    Last edited by Nangz; 2012-12-10 at 03:46 PM.

  17. #17
    I posted 496 cause its what most people will get and when i checked the data it seems like the correctly made the adjustments to gear and reforge. Using femaledwarf i get numbers similar to yours but with MM almost as equal as SV, but did the change of Haste <=> Crit after the second haste plateau. Without that i found the same numbers as Saoron.

    This can show the delicate balance of a MM hunter DPS, that while not number breaking (the theorical DPS difference is less than 5%) could lower the spec just cause a technical data that not everyone know (the "clipping" of the Steady Shot rotation with Chimera, "talent" shot).

    Also, our burst comes from lining Aimed Shot with Chimera but that requires planning and is not as easy as it could be with other specs. And i agree that in AoE fights we have a very bad shape, even with tailored talents and glyphs.

  18. #18
    Herald of the Titans Bryntrollian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ladern View Post
    I posted 496 cause its what most people will get and when i checked the data it seems like the correctly made the adjustments to gear and reforge. Using femaledwarf i get numbers similar to yours but with MM almost as equal as SV, but did the change of Haste <=> Crit after the second haste plateau. Without that i found the same numbers as Saoron.

    This can show the delicate balance of a MM hunter DPS, that while not number breaking (the theorical DPS difference is less than 5%) could lower the spec just cause a technical data that not everyone know (the "clipping" of the Steady Shot rotation with Chimera, "talent" shot).

    Also, our burst comes from lining Aimed Shot with Chimera but that requires planning and is not as easy as it could be with other specs. And i agree that in AoE fights we have a very bad shape, even with tailored talents and glyphs.
    So you're saying the big gap is more of a l2p issue ?
    Synek - best rogue in the world


  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Saoron View Post
    Not hard per se but I think what he meant was if you roll your face on your keyboard as BM, you will still do good (Kripparrian showed that by afk'ing majority of an LFR fight and still being in the top of the meters). Whereas, you would do horrible as MM. MM has a higher rotation penalty than the other two.
    What you need to consider here is the gear Kripp has and in that LFR he did start the fight blowing all his CD's then AFKing... so realistically you cant just AFK.. Plus with most top 100 - 200 guilds in the world most of them dont actually do LFR as its a waste of time...

    OT: MM is just perfetic this expac and I doubt blizz will change that anytime soon..

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Nangz View Post
    This is certainly subjective and depends on the boss but its likely clear that you can kill every single boss in this game with a properly played and geared MM hunter in your raid.
    It more depends on the category. Not a single progression hunter was ever MM during the first kills. But, yes. You can kill every single 'farm' and/or normal mode bosses as MM. (And there were a handful of MM hunters who killed a couple normal modes here and there, even before the buff. Out of pride or stupidity I dunnu)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nangz View Post
    Being progression and casual is an attitude, choosing to play a spec that you like over one that does xxx number of dps ( as long as it isn't TOO much) isn't wrong. Here is a Method parse where a both a frost mage and an arcane mage dps. Clearly he should go arcane because numbers right? Wrong. Maybe he was doing a different job than the arcane mage? Maybe, but not according to their damage target breakdown. Its very similar with slightly higher add damage on the frost mage.

    You throw out this term casual as if it is supposed to be an insult for people who don't play well or don't care about doing well. If everyone swapping to the "top spec" everytime it changed, you wouldn't see a single hunter in top raiding guilds as they would have rerolled mage. So you can play what class you want but not the spec? what?
    Where is the log ? And it's not just an attitude, it's the general goal/directive of a specific guild. And appologies if it seemed like I was implying a negative connotation to casual, that was not my intention. People play this game for a variety of reasons, but in terms of pve, a guild is either progression focused or casual. (Ofcourse there being levels of each category: hardcore, semi hardcore, hardcore-casual, extreme casual etc)

    And lol what are you even talking about. There is this thing called raid comp. It matters.

    Again, two different guilds would handle 'comp' dependant fights differently based on their category. Casual guilds don't have the luxury of multiple geared alts and a massive roster so they have to go with what they have. And yes in upto a semi-hardcore (non top 100) setting, you can play whatever class you can, but NOT the spec, that is right. If a guy like you were a mage in a top guild in Dragon Soul and you were progressing on Heroic Spine, and you insisted on playing fire or frost. You'd be gkicked so fast your head would spin.
    And If i were to swap a class i'd be bringing an alt, gearing it up etc etc. To change specs I click a button. You're comparing apples and oranges here.

    Garalon for example, pre nerf/fix, hunters WERE sat, completely. In almost all the top guilds. And some brought in rogue/mage alts or were replaced. You could NOT kill garalon with an 'MM hunter', that is a fact. Barring world top 10, rosters got more leniant and we saw some hunters here and there who were playing BM or SV for multi dotting. Granted MM was complete shit back then but you get my point though. Raid comp is a huge factor in progression.

    And the difference between arcane and frost is NOT the same as BM vs MM. Like I said in my earlier post, MM brings nothing to the table that other specs can't do better. Frost IS better at certain things than arcane. Burst aoe, cc etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nangz View Post
    In your next post you say that the gap widens considerably between BM and MM, i'm not sure what you consider to be "considerably", but the number is 3%. Again I ask, if 3% is enough to justify not bringing a MM hunter, why bring any hunter at all over a mage? The difference between arcane and BM is over 12%!
    Again, for progression there is no such thing as an MM hunter, there is just hunter. If a player can only play one spec he won't be in a progression guild in the first place. Again, all of this is irrelevant for a casual guild.
    And lol once again, raid comp. There are certain things a hunter brings that a mage can't. If they could, there would be no hunters in top guilds for sure. But if you were in a progression guild, you'd know that raid buffs and other utilities are as important as raw class damage, generally speaking.

    And yes, 3% is a make or break in the progression race where guilds consistently have 1% wipes. If an MM hunter is in a progression guild (for god knows what reason) and the guild wipes to enrage at less than 5% consistently. It's on him. He needs to go BM to squeeze out as much dmg as possible. And going from MM to BM makes no difference to hunter utility whatsoever. The ONLY change happens is both your single target and aoe dmg increases.

    So, I repeat, for PROGRESSION, MM is not viable. But for casual raiding AND farm, go to town. It makes no difference. The log you were mentioning was most likely a farm log. Where enrages/dps doesn't matter since everyone outgears the content.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-10 at 10:50 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryntrollian View Post
    So you're saying the big gap is more of a l2p issue ?
    No. Not when it comes to theoretical max dps of each spec. The numbers I posted are exactly that. All three specs, played in a perfect scenario with perfect gameplay. So the max theoretical and potential dps. But, the l2p issue is a major factor in current logs for sure. Like I said earlier, BM and SV have a very low penalty for player skill. MM has a very high one. On average it is tougher to perfectly play MM than it is to play BM or SV and the gap widens even more because of that.
    Last edited by Saoron; 2012-12-10 at 04:54 PM.

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