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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Saoron View Post
    On average it is tougher to perfectly play MM than it is to play BM or SV and the gap widens even more because of that.
    Maybe I'm just too used to playing MM as opposed to SV and BM, but why is Marksmanship considered to be so much harder than the other two, specially now that you don't have to manage Steady Shot pairs nearly as much?
    Roll the bones!

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Penguintamer View Post
    It is not viable. It's PvE rotation is not fun, either. I just don't see the appeal in the lack of a defined rotation. They need to define whether they want hunters to use Aimed Shot as a focus dump or Arcane Shot. They need to get rid of the several talents clogging up the rotation. It's damage right now is just not great. You'll probably put in twice the effort into achieving the proper rotation and still be behind many other specs. With BiS gear it might surpass some specs, but who knows. BM is supreme and Survival is very decent post-Serpent Sting buff, and is king of AoE.
    This

    its sad because mm needs alot of fix and we know blizzard, they take time to do the things right

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    Maybe I'm just too used to playing MM as opposed to SV and BM, but why is Marksmanship considered to be so much harder than the other two, specially now that you don't have to manage Steady Shot pairs nearly as much?
    i don't understand this either. i hated MM during WotLK and Cataclysm, played survival in wrath and BM pvp in cataclysm.

    but here in MoP, MM is my main raiding spec, i love it, i finaly find MM fun, i hate survival with all my heart, and i play BM for solo content.


    And i do far more damage with MM compared to BM on encounters where i can keep doing my rotations for the full fight. only reason i would change to BM is for fights like Elegon where things have to die instantly.

  4. #24
    It is not 'harder', or 'hard' in general, like I have said already before. I guess people don't read long posts. BM/SV both have a singular defined rotation/priority system. MM has multiple. BM/SV aren't that affected by haste. MM is massively affective by haste and the rotation changes drastically with shifts in haste values. CA range, aimed shot + SS, after that regular rotation. When/if you have a haste proc trinket or pop berserking or lust, you have to judge whether the cast time is reduced enough for aimed to be viable or not. (usually isn't).
    BM/SV all you use cobra for is to regen focus and/or refresh srs. Shoot all your abilities and regen with cobra. Whereas steady shot provides the ISS buff and albeit with the increased duration it's simpler now, it is still one more thing that affects the rotation.

    I know it's hard, but try to think objectively when talking about general topics. When people say MM is a bit more complicated than BM/SV, that doesn't mean AMG MY BRAIN HURTZ!!. And then all you MM players sit up in your chairs feeling high and mighty going 'ppsh it's easy mode, I play MM all the time and I do great.' Well good for you. What I mean when I say complicated is if you took an average person who has never played WoW. Get him to play and roll a hunter. Then try to teach him each spec. Objectively, MM will look the most complicated to him. If you're chinese, you will think mandarin/cantonese are easy languages. 'Ppshh I talk in mandarin all the time. you guys are nubs'. That doesn't change the fact that it is still more complicated to learn than japanese. Even though technically you can learn them both easily.

    And btw, all this is based on maximizing output and thoroughly min/maxing each spec. I see a lot of MM players on this thread and that's all fine. But, unless you can rank top 10. You don't know what it takes to min/max. So if you're just hitting buttons when they come off cd, yes MM is easy peasy.

  5. #25
    the problem is, MM is a lot easyer than survival for me, no matter how you try to cut it out Saoron. You don't have to "manage" steady focus, it lasts for 20 seconds, and you will be using steady shot to regain forcus before that because of the high focus cost of chimera anyways. i have NEVER seen my steady focus buff go below 5 seconds.

    and using aimed shot at proc and when under rapidfire / heroism is not as hard as you try to make it sound.

    use aimed shot when proc, chimera shot, glaive toss, AMoC and Dire Beast and rapidfire on cooldown, rest of the time spam steady shots and arcane shots, i don't see the hard part?

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Garkanh View Post
    the problem is, MM is a lot easyer than survival for me, no matter how you try to cut it out Saoron. You don't have to "manage" steady focus, it lasts for 20 seconds, and you will be using steady shot to regain forcus before that because of the high focus cost of chimera anyways. i have NEVER seen my steady focus buff go below 5 seconds.

    and using aimed shot at proc and when under rapidfire / heroism is not as hard as you try to make it sound.

    use aimed shot when proc, chimera shot, glaive toss, AMoC and Dire Beast and rapidfire on cooldown, rest of the time spam steady shots and arcane shots, i don't see the hard part?

    That's all fine and dandy, but on a aoe scenario (wind lord), sv flat out smashes MM. In single target, it flat out loses to the burst BM brings.

    It's not a matter of being harder to play or not, it's the fact that MM is not dishing out the dmg necessary to be viable in progress. And by progress I mean Hc modes. By bringing a subpar spec, you are hurting your guild in their progress.

    Garkanh, you play better in MM than sv/bm? Good for you. That doesn't change the fact that BM is THE spec for single target, while sv is THE spec for aoe. MM doesn't have a strong point, on the contrary.

    Sure the ISS buff was a nice addition, but the spec needs more dmg buffs. It simply lacks in damage output.
    You can check out the rankings in World of Logs. most MM hunters ranked are already in farm sessions, but still, compare their dmg to sv or BM.
    Check Gara'jal for example. Most ranked players stay on boss 100% and it's a single target fight, so i'll give that boss as an example.
    http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...rvival_Hunter/
    http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...anship_Hunter/
    http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...astery_Hunter/

    The difference between the 5 top spots in each spec is significant.
    You can argue about spec, skill, time of kill, buffs, wtv. Check any other boss, and you will see how bad MM is doing in hc modes.
    There are few MM hunters for a reason.

    I really wanted MM to be ok for progress, I prefer it over sv. But while my guild is in progress, I'm not going to be the guy doing less dps than i can do, just because I want to play a certain spec. When we have bosses in farm sure, but in progress? The best dps spec possible.
    And that is "never MM" in this patch.
    Last edited by WarBringerPT; 2012-12-10 at 09:25 PM.

  7. #27
    The logs from Gara'jal Heroic are not the most reliable because if the guy who logs, goes down in the spirit world, your log is completely different than the one from the people who stay up in the normal realm from start to finish. The only valid logs are those if the guy who logs stay on boss from start to finish.
    Rufflesaurus <Huhuholics> Tarren Mill EU





  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruffles View Post
    The logs from Gara'jal Heroic are not the most reliable because if the guy who logs, goes down in the spirit world, your log is completely different than the one from the people who stay up in the normal realm from start to finish. The only valid logs are those if the guy who logs stay on boss from start to finish.
    Believe me, those logs have the one recording the logs always up, to record these ranks. Ppl in that fight leave the person recording on top to make it a patchwerk fight (in terms of logs). Dmg on boss will confirm my statement.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by WarBringerPT View Post
    Believe me, those logs have the one recording the logs always up, to record these ranks. Ppl in that fight leave the person recording on top to make it a patchwerk fight (in terms of logs). Dmg on boss will confirm my statement.
    That works for some guilds, but not every guild.
    Rufflesaurus <Huhuholics> Tarren Mill EU





  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruffles View Post
    That works for some guilds, but not every guild.
    For the point of explaining how "bad" is MM comparing to the other specs, this "sample" serves it's purpose.

    To sum it all up: want to make a difference, don't go MM. If you are progressing through hc modes, don't go MM. Don't be that guy that slows your guild down, make the right decision and spec BM/sv while raiding.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by WarBringerPT View Post
    For the point of explaining how "bad" is MM comparing to the other specs, this "sample" serves it's purpose.

    To sum it all up: want to make a difference, don't go MM. If you are progressing through hc modes, don't go MM. Don't be that guy that slows your guild down, make the right decision and spec BM/sv while raiding.
    The only reason people think MM is so far behind, is because no of the good players play it. If only a few casuals play it, the logs will show its dps as lower than BM.

    there is no argument about MM being worse than survival at AoE fights, but i know that i for one, can do a LOT more dps on single target patchwerk fights as MM than i can with BM. Maybe i just sucks with BM, i don't know, but i top my guilds damage meters, and always top 5 in raidfinder (with firemages and such above me with better gear), no matter if i play BM or MM, but just on target dummy i do 4k more dps with MM.

    and MM leaves more room for mistakes IMO than BM do, as missing a cooldown by a few seconds doesn't affect your dps my the same amount that BM do.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Garkanh View Post
    Maybe i just sucks with BM, i don't know, but i top my guilds damage meters, and always top 5 in raidfinder (with firemages and such above me with better gear), no matter if i play BM or MM, but just on target dummy i do 4k more dps with MM.
    BM is easy to play, the only thing that has to be learnt is the opener, and best use of BW, the rota in between is dead easy, (just as SV/MM)
    just because you top your guilds and LFR meters, doesn't mean you couldn't be doing better.
    NEVER compare dps on target dummies interspecc when using MM. MM gets a huge boost of dps on target dummies, because you have +75% crit on Steady/Aimed/Chimera because the target dummy is at 100% health. if you're only doing 4k more on the dummy, you're doing better with the other specc.

  13. #33
    *Sigh* this word always bugs me so much, it is misused far too often in relation to specs. Yes, MM is "Viable". Viable means a legitimate option, a spec that you can use and expect to be successful. It's not OPTIMAL, atm. If you really love to be MM or feel that you are better at it than the other specs, and you're not competing for server firsts, go ahead and be MM. If your raid wipes, it's not going to be because you chose to be MM instead of BM unless you wipe to enrage with the boss on 300k health. The damage is going to be fine to beat the enrage timers, just not quite as high as it's going to be if you do BM or SV perfectly. MM is perfectly viable, but if you are focused on doing the most damage you can possibly do and willing to put in the time to be just as good at BM or SV as you are at MM, then do that. Although it takes considerably less work to maximize SV than MM.
    I

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garkanh View Post
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...%A9kaie/simple

    i find MM fun, the roation is good and steady, and i still top my guilds damage meters.

    only conserns is the lack of burst when target switching on Elegon and similar bosses, and AoE.

    Single target fights MM is 100% viable.
    The problem with this argument is that the rest of the DPS in your guild can be under performing. It's easy to call it viable when you see it top your guilds charts, but that doesn't really mean that it is viable.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Garkanh View Post
    The only reason people think MM is so far behind, is because no of the good players play it. If only a few casuals play it, the logs will show its dps as lower than BM.

    there is no argument about MM being worse than survival at AoE fights, but i know that i for one, can do a LOT more dps on single target patchwerk fights as MM than i can with BM. Maybe i just sucks with BM, i don't know, but i top my guilds damage meters, and always top 5 in raidfinder (with firemages and such above me with better gear), no matter if i play BM or MM, but just on target dummy i do 4k more dps with MM.

    and MM leaves more room for mistakes IMO than BM do, as missing a cooldown by a few seconds doesn't affect your dps my the same amount that BM do.
    I don't think ppl clearing hc modes (in farm mode) are "casuals". Check again the WoL, check hc modes of all bosses, compare MM with BM. IF you find a top ranked MM doing more than a BM, link it plz.

    And it's like you said, you could be underperforming in BM. Do you have any log of you performing in both MM ad BM?

  16. #36
    In my current gear (495 ilvl, bow above average at 504 ilvl) im getting Simc results at 100k deps for BM and 98.1k deps for MM (25k iterations min.). Gear is reforged differently for each spec (might be room for abit more tweaks for MM, but BM should be maxed).

    Thats less than 2% difference and similar to the situation with survival, that so many have no problem ignoring (cuz oh i like survival moar!). People in similar gear situation as me, should have little worries playing MM if they want. (For the record, upgrading weapon to above average instead of under (lfr->normal) boosted BM by 8% and MM by 13% in my case).

    Also if anyone is lucky with hc Tauren, before getting many other hc items, MM might even give higher sims than BM. Has anyone tried that? And will the elitists switch to MM for the extra %? Would love to see that.
    Last edited by Kamse; 2012-12-14 at 10:34 PM.

  17. #37
    T.L. D.R. MM is not that far behind, but is behind. If you aim for the best dps there is, dont use it. If you are in a regular guild where you dont requiere to milk every drop from your dps it can be good and fun but expect to practice it a few times before you do competitive DPS.
    Even in a regular guild, though, playing a spec that's drops your dps significantly* means that you're not carrying your weight unless you're sacrificing personal DPS for a) a raid buff that increases the overall raid DPS or b) you're bringing some other utility than your other specs cannot bring. If the DPS gap is small enough, eh. But if it's sizable due either to the inherent limitations of the spec or because there's a high penalty for not being perfect then low % wipes might be your fault... which means that the other people in your guild now have to redo that boss because you decided to play a spec that isn't as good as your other specs.

    If your raid moves from 20% wipes to clean kills then it won't matter... but I struggle with doing significantly less than you can just because you want to play a given spec.

    *to me significantly is 10% or more. If you can do, say, 50K in one spec but are doing under 45k in another that can make the difference between a close wipe and a kill.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Saoron View Post
    What are you talking about ? I said he "afk'd". Does player skill seep through the keyboard and embed itself as artificial intelligence that plays for you when you're away ? Skill has nothing to do with it. Majority of your damage comes from your pet. He simply spammed all cooldowns, and let his pet simply attack and he auto shot.

    But that's all besides the main point, BM is the top damage spec out of all three and is really easy to play and has very little penalty for messing up the 'rotation'. MM is the lowest damage spec, and has a high penalty.
    This is a misrepresentation of what happened int he video. It's clear you have very little understanding of hunters from this response.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3VOMJx1HAk for everyone who wants to watch it. He spends about 50% of his time in the fight and 50% playing D3. He's in massive gear, against LFR and came in 3rd.

    At no point did he say that BM was faceroll. That's what you're saying. Also, most of your damage does not, in fact, come from your pet, in BM spec. Please show a log that does reasonable DPS on an encounter that matches your bizarre, uninformed stance on what BM is or does.

    Maybe you can elaborate on your opinion of the rotation for BM, since you seem to claim you actually have any idea what it is? I'm curious what all these people who say "bm is sooo eeezay!" people think you actually need to do to play BM right now. I'd be delighted if you tried to back up any of your claims with any data at all. That would be amazing. Unfortunately, I don't think any of your claims will be true if you actually look into it.

    Cheers!

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Garkanh View Post
    use aimed shot when proc, chimera shot, glaive toss, AMoC and Dire Beast and rapidfire on cooldown, rest of the time spam steady shots and arcane shots, i don't see the hard part?
    I thought you had 3 rotations? 80+, 80-20, sub 20?

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by gulder View Post
    I thought you had 3 rotations? 80+, 80-20, sub 20?
    at 100-80% you should use Aimed instead of arcane shot to dump focus, at 20% you use killshot on cooldown as in all other specs., doesn't change much.

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