View Poll Results: Would europeans be willing to take a China bailout in return for some sovereignty?

Voters
124. You may not vote on this poll
  • yes

    11 8.87%
  • no

    113 91.13%
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
LastLast
  1. #41
    The Lightbringer Vellerix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Cheshire, England
    Posts
    3,214
    I'd rather die.

  2. #42
    Old God
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    10,197
    Quote Originally Posted by ashblond View Post
    Why would China want to do this? and what can Europe offer China in return?

    Gas/Oil? EU is not rich in them, and China can get much more from Middle east, africa, south America, Russia etc..

    Technology? This can be the case. But today's EU doesn't really have much to offer.
    Chinese owners(of European corporations, and there is a bunch of those) don't move business to China for one reason alone atm, the human capital of our skilled labour force, I'm not talking about basic manufacturing now, but high skill demanding jobs.

    Europe got quite a bit of oil and gas, or rather, Denmark and Norway has, as they have claims on The Arctic region, and The Arctic holds the world's largest remaining untapped gas reserves, a fucking goldmine. The Arctic Council(Canada, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway, Russia, Sweden, and the US) handle all this shit.

    Just an example.
    Greenland is believed by geologists to have some of the world’s largest remaining oil resources. Prospecting is taking place under the auspices of NUNAOIL, a partnership between the Greenland Home Rule Government and the Danish state. U.S. Geological Survey found in 2001 that the waters off north-eastern Greenland (north and south of the arctic circle) could contain up to 110 billion barrels (17×109 m3) of oil.
    Last edited by Jackmoves; 2012-12-08 at 05:06 PM.
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  3. #43
    High Overlord
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    La Défense (France)
    Posts
    164
    Quote Originally Posted by Grummgug View Post
    I had a really interesting discussion with some people about the European debt crisis. We talked about the recession Europe is mired in. We talked about the huge problems with Greece, and Italy's issues. It seems quite a mess.

    So I proposed this question and it generated some interesting responses. I was curious to see what sort of responses it would get here. My friends told me not to start this thread, because they may think I'm just trolling. But I'm just too curious as to what the responses would be.

    So here is the scenario:

    Let's say China approached Europe with an offer. They would give a MASSIVE bailout. I dunno, quadrillions of dollars, or something amazing. This cash infusion would solve their debt crisis, and return Europe to prosperity. Jobs would return. There would be a brighter future on the immediate horizon. It would also have the potential to guarantee the long-term viability of Europe's social safety net. What China asks for in return is for Europe to surrender some degree of their sovereignty to China. China would get control of some aspects of European society going forward, to protect their new investment. I think there is some latitude on what form this control manifests itself as. Perhaps they get final say on economic matters. Or maybe they get some sort of permanent seat in government with some veto powers or legislation writing ability.

    Would europeans be willing to do this, to try to make sure their social programs are well-funded? To make sure austerity is never an option?
    It's already hard for Euro countrys to leave an inch of soveringnty to "Europe" and you ask if we'll give some to China. NO

  4. #44
    Dreadlord Hurax's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    München, Germany
    Posts
    880
    The main factor that allowed the crisis to be dragged on for years, enforce privatisations, austerity and recession, was the lack of national and democratic sovereignty: the Euro currency, the lack of control over fiscal policy. So fighting fire with gasoline hoses seems like a bad idea.

  5. #45
    I am Murloc! Tomatketchup's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,986
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackmoves View Post
    Greenland is believed by geologists to have some of the world’s largest remaining oil resources. Prospecting is taking place under the auspices of NUNAOIL, a partnership between the Greenland Home Rule Government and the Danish state. U.S. Geological Survey found in 2001 that the waters off north-eastern Greenland (north and south of the arctic circle) could contain up to 110 billion barrels (17×109 m3) of oil.
    I foresee a Danish-American war in the future.

  6. #46
    Fluffy Kitten Wikiy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Virgo Supercluster, Local Group, Milky Way, Orion Arm, Solar System, Earth, European Union, Croatia
    Posts
    5,164
    Quote Originally Posted by Bakis View Post
    Im just looking forward when Greece will gtfo of the union.
    Will be a day of rejoice for me personally no matter how sad and how much of a decleration of a failure it may be.
    I am baffled by the constant opinion that Greece (as well as Italy, Portugal and Spain) should be kicked out of the Union. It kind of relies on the assumption that the EU is an economic union, WHICH IT ISN'T. It's a political union with an economic side. If you kick out Greece, or if it even leaves, that goes against the entire point of the EU: integration and unity.

    Fuck economy, if the Union is such a weak and counter-productive (from the view of integration and unity) institution that its leaders could ever even think that kicking a country out is a viable solution (which I'm glad they officially don't), then i don't want to be a part of it, then i simply regret my country wanting to enter next year.

    OT: Europe doesn't need a bailout, most of its countries are either prospering or are doing okay. Either way, the situation is going to be resolved one way or another, Europe wont collapse because things like that simply don't happen with such huge economies. It's too stable for something like that to happen. Also, I'm kind of cheering for the EU to become a superpower at the moment and it giving a part of its sovereignty to China would kind of make that impossible, so no.

    PS: I wouldn't agree to USA doing it either.

  7. #47
    I am Murloc! Tomatketchup's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,986
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikiy View Post
    Fuck economy, if the Union is such a weak and counter-productive (from the view of integration and unity) institution that its leaders could ever even think that kicking a country out is a viable solution (which I'm glad they officially don't), then i don't want to be a part of it, then i simply regret my country wanting to enter next year.
    Agreed. Sure, there seems to be a lot of shit going down in southern Europe, and a lot of us might not agree with what the people there think, but they're our brothers dammit, we can't bail out on them, that'd be like leaving a family member to die in the quicksand because they didn't pay for that BigMac Meal at McDonalds once.

  8. #48
    The Lightbringer slime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    USA PA
    Posts
    3,623
    I think Europeans are too proud for that. I think they'd rather do it the old fashioned way... revolution.

  9. #49
    Scarab Lord Descense's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Kalos
    Posts
    4,925
    Blocking a cheap trade with china would fix the economy in my option. Right now you get all the stuff cheap and all the money goes into a china while your produces cant keep up with prices. If there is a demand for 1 thing--there are jobs. If there are jobs--- well you know the story.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikiy View Post
    I am baffled by the constant opinion that Greece (as well as Italy, Portugal and Spain) should be kicked out of the Union.
    I wouldn't bother giving credit to the opinions of this kind of people. These are usually the racist, uneducated morons that are getting fed all kinds of garbage by the media.

  11. #51
    Fluffy Kitten Wikiy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Virgo Supercluster, Local Group, Milky Way, Orion Arm, Solar System, Earth, European Union, Croatia
    Posts
    5,164
    Quote Originally Posted by Livevil View Post
    I wouldn't bother giving credit to the opinions of this kind of people. These are usually the racist, uneducated morons that are getting fed all kinds of garbage by the media.
    Those kind of opinions, though, seem to prevail on these forums (and in general to be quite honest) among EU Europeans.

  12. #52
    hahaha silly europeans.

  13. #53
    Old God
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    10,197
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomatketchup View Post
    I foresee a Danish-American war in the future.
    lol that will not end well.

    The vibe of the TAC seems to be really chill though from what I have read, no worries.
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  14. #54
    The Lightbringer Mandible's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    3,376
    No, since first of all "europe" isn't one country but at most a union of countries (while idiotic laws may point otherwise) which also means the debth each country has is different. Its bad enough with cases like Greenland where they come in with thousands of chinese workers and potentially destroy the surrounding inviroment in their search for minerals.
    "Only Jack can zip up."
    The word you want to use is "have" not "of".
    You may have alot of stuff in your country, but we got Lolland.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by slime View Post
    I think Europeans are too proud for that. I think they'd rather do it the old fashioned way... revolution.
    I'm pretty sure any country/region is "too" proud to sell out their sovereignty for a bit of cash.

  16. #56
    I am Murloc! Tomatketchup's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,986
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackmoves View Post
    TAC seems to be really chill though
    I see what you did there.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Livevil View Post
    I wouldn't bother giving credit to the opinions of this kind of people. These are usually the racist, uneducated morons that are getting fed all kinds of garbage by the media.
    The hell? Do you have any idea what corruption those countries have compared to the rest of western Europe? Forget about kicking them out, if the EU leaders would take their heads out of eachothers ass, those countries would not have even been integrated into EU in the first place if they had been in this state since the beginning.

    Spain could arguably stay though.
    Last edited by Arlon; 2012-12-08 at 11:26 PM.

  18. #58
    Fluffy Kitten Wikiy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Virgo Supercluster, Local Group, Milky Way, Orion Arm, Solar System, Earth, European Union, Croatia
    Posts
    5,164
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlon View Post
    The hell? Do you have any idea what corruption those countries have compared to the rest of western Europe? Forget about kicking them out, if the EU leaders would take their heads out of eachothers ass, those countries would not have even been integrated into EU in the first place if they had been in this state since the beginning.

    Spain could arguably stay though.
    First of all, the criteria that are now applied for membership are far more strict than what they were when these countries entered the Union, and second, it doesn't matter AT ALL in what state they were in when they entered. They're already in, and kicking them out is the stupidest solution possible. It just goes in the face of democracy and what the Union's about, and frankly, it's just the easy, cheap and immoral way out for the more developed EU countries.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikiy View Post
    First of all, the criteria that are now applied for membership are far more strict than what they were when these countries entered the Union, and second, it doesn't matter AT ALL in what state they were in when they entered. They're already in, and kicking them out is the stupidest solution y possible. It just goes in the face of democracy and what the Union's about, and frankly, it's just the easy, cheap and immoral way out for the more developed EU countries.
    Aside from the meaningless rhetoric, the developed EU countries are being sucked dry as it is now. The goverment of theese problematic countries needs to learn that they should play by the established rules, otherwise might aswell abolish the EU since we are going to repeat the same song all over again. If the reforms fail completely, they should be booted.

    In the face of democracy, really now?

    Its fine to help countries that might have done some bad choices and are having difficulties due to economic cinrcumstances unique to them. But this is not the case here. This whole mess is because of goverments that are corrupt to the core.
    Last edited by Arlon; 2012-12-09 at 12:04 AM.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Grummgug View Post
    I had a really interesting discussion with some people about the European debt crisis. We talked about the recession Europe is mired in. We talked about the huge problems with Greece, and Italy's issues. It seems quite a mess.

    So I proposed this question and it generated some interesting responses. I was curious to see what sort of responses it would get here. My friends told me not to start this thread, because they may think I'm just trolling. But I'm just too curious as to what the responses would be.

    So here is the scenario:

    Let's say China approached Europe with an offer. They would give a MASSIVE bailout. I dunno, quadrillions of dollars, or something amazing. This cash infusion would solve their debt crisis, and return Europe to prosperity. Jobs would return. There would be a brighter future on the immediate horizon. It would also have the potential to guarantee the long-term viability of Europe's social safety net. What China asks for in return is for Europe to surrender some degree of their sovereignty to China. China would get control of some aspects of European society going forward, to protect their new investment. I think there is some latitude on what form this control manifests itself as. Perhaps they get final say on economic matters. Or maybe they get some sort of permanent seat in government with some veto powers or legislation writing ability.

    Would europeans be willing to do this, to try to make sure their social programs are well-funded? To make sure austerity is never an option?
    The crisis is already making it easier for the chinese to open up shop here. I mean i've seen a huge increase in the number of chinese shops and "malls" where i live.

    Why completely open the door?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •