1. #1

    [WW] Crit > haste at around 4000 haste already! proof inside

    It used to be haste > all but since patch you will notice that all top notch monks value crit more now!

    I've now been studying forums, playing around with simcraft and ask Mr robot and found out that I my current gear crit is better than haste ! Something like 1.37 vs 1.33 !
    Went to see just monk's from method profile and it seems to be correct as he reforged all he used to have in haste to crit now! Changed all my gems and reforged it all and my stats are now pretty much the same as his. According to simcraft my DPS went up a lot. Over 115k DPS now.
    Using gara'jal's heroic fist and non-hero in offhand! Before all changes and the hero drop yesterday I had 489er 2h putting me at 84dps lol. Guess my raid leader is going to love me even more !

    To all those in my situation, run simcraft with scaling for all our important stats, look at weights you get and put them into askmrrobot stat weights and run optimize! Worked flawlessly for me!

    You can check my profile if you want, ilvl 493 (upgrades don't show up in armory yet) :
    Bofferding - EU-Gilneas

  2. #2
    It's because Ascension gives a ridiculous amount of energy regeneration on top of more people getting the tier 4-set which in itself is worth almost 1 energy per second with Ascension. On the day of the patch I had 7k haste rating, specced into Ascension, and then found that I literally could not spend energy fast enough to every be unable to Jab. Once you stop benefiting from the extra energy, haste starts affecting ONLY auto-attacks since our GCD is already 1.0 seconds, so if you're energy capped then haste is garbage. It's going to be quite interesting next tier when Crit is our only useful stat.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    It's because Ascension gives a ridiculous amount of energy regeneration on top of more people getting the tier 4-set which in itself is worth almost 1 energy per second with Ascension. On the day of the patch I had 7k haste rating, specced into Ascension, and then found that I literally could not spend energy fast enough to every be unable to Jab. Once you stop benefiting from the extra energy, haste starts affecting ONLY auto-attacks since our GCD is already 1.0 seconds, so if you're energy capped then haste is garbage. It's going to be quite interesting next tier when Crit is our only useful stat.
    True! Imagine me , I used to play 2H until yesterday...had 85% haste self buffed.. Was ridiculous ! Glad I only have 4k haste now and using 1h got so much better

  4. #4
    I have the 2h 489 weapon from Spirit Kings, should I swap for 2x 1h 463?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Daredalus View Post
    I have the 2h 489 weapon from Spirit Kings, should I swap for 2x 1h 463?
    Lol no, dual-wielding is only like a 7% DPS increase from 2h, use whatever is a higher item level.

    Also, the extra attack speed from using a 2h is not "haste", despite it looking like it on the character sheet. It does not affect energy regeneration, SCK ticks, or FoF in any way.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Lol no, dual-wielding is only like a 7% DPS increase from 2h, use whatever is a higher item level.

    Also, the extra attack speed from using a 2h is not "haste", despite it looking like it on the character sheet. It does not affect energy regeneration, SCK ticks, or FoF in any way.
    Didn't know that thx! Even though 5-7% more DPS are quite huge, you should go with highest ilvl between your 2h and the average of your 2 1h. I only had the 489 1h and the same from lfr 476, it was roughly equal to my 489 2h! Now I use my 510/489
    And as for the future read a simulation craft tutorial and import your char from battle.net and run the sims allows yo to do all kind of funny stuff, like for example see how much DPS you would have with a new weapon
    Last edited by bofferding; 2012-12-07 at 03:08 PM.

  7. #7
    I am using the 2hander off of Spirit Kings and upgrading it 1/2 to ilvl 493


    Using MrRobot I input the following weight stats which makes crit>haste
    Agi - 2.73
    Physical Hit - 2.7
    Exp - 1.87
    Haste 1.17
    Crit - 1.39
    Str- 1.02
    AP - 0.93
    Mastery - 0.8

    With these weights I end up with a optimized 98,776


    I then input the following weight stats which has haste>crit
    Agi - 2.73
    Physical Hit - 2.7
    Exp - 1.87
    Haste 1.39
    Crit - 1.17
    Str- 1.02
    AP - 0.93
    Mastery - 0.8

    With the haste>crit build I am at an optimized 99,124



    Edit: Using Simcraft with 10,000 iterations gave me the haste>crit numbers
    Last edited by Legend420; 2012-12-07 at 04:19 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Legend420 View Post
    I am using the 2hander off of Spirit Kings and upgrading it 1/2 to ilvl 493


    Using MrRobot I input the following weight stats which makes crit>haste
    Agi - 2.73
    Physical Hit - 2.7
    Exp - 1.87
    Haste 1.17
    Crit - 1.39
    Str- 1.02
    AP - 0.93
    Mastery - 0.8

    With these weights I end up with a optimized 98,776


    I then input the following weight stats which has haste>crit
    Agi - 2.73
    Physical Hit - 2.7
    Exp - 1.87
    Haste 1.39
    Crit - 1.17
    Str- 1.02
    AP - 0.93
    Mastery - 0.8

    With the haste>crit build I am at an optimized 99,124



    Edit: Using Simcraft with 10,000 iterations gave me the haste>crit numbers
    like I said it depends on your gear, I guess it's different between 2h and 1h, I know as a fact that those 2 have different priority levels.

    also 10'000 iterations are a bit low if you want exact numbers, should go for at least 25'000.

  9. #9
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ascious/simple

    Sitting at 4.1k haste and 5.1k crit with dual fists I ran the reforge plot for reforging 2000 haste or crit in either direction. Reforging 2k more haste to crit drops off quickly but still only reduces dps by about 600. Going the other direction reforging crit to haste sees it peak at an extra 200 dps after only 1.2k extra haste reforged. I think this is basically saying around 5.3k we hit a plateau. This graph is below.



    I'm getting these charts also.





    After I expanded the reforging to look at the effects of reforging up to 5k extra haste (essentially removing all my crit if I could) I got the below.



    Here you can see that reforging haste past another 1.5k (so hitting the 5.6k point) has barely any more impact and after 2500 extra (so 6.6k) it finally peaks and then starts to drop.

    This shows the progressive benefit of haste vs crit, and that after 4k haste the benefits radically reduce as you get closer to gcd capping yourself in order to utilise all your energy and chi. Now I cant say that I am interpreting these properly, but it certainly makes for interesting numbers. So yes, haste does appear to be better but it has quite a strict cut off point. This is assuming you utilise a FoF rotation and maximize. If you don't use FoF I imagine that haste will hold its value to a higher peak.

    I guess the main thing to take away from this though is that once you reach about 4k each in haste and crit with your hit and expertise caps covered. That as long as you concentrate on adding haste/or crit and understand that haste does have an upper limit restricting focusing on it above all else. You will maintain your dps within a few 100 of the maximum that your gear allows assuming you follow a sensible gemming and enchanting regime as well assuming a full rotation with FoF.

    Generally I think most of us will find more of a dps increase from improving our play style rather than fine tuning our stats. With so much movement on so many fights and touch of karma offering a quite variable potential damage return these things. Touch of karma potentially gives us 4-500k damage every 1.5 mins. On a 6 min Zor'lok fight I did around 800k damage with it (using it on cooldown), this is quite below what could potentially with FB use and clever play be nearly 2 million in damage. In that kill it was 3% of my damage, when reforging is offering 500 dps gains which is less than 1% dps gain when you're doing 100k dps, but maximizing touch of karma could add a further 3% you start to see the play style gains from complex mechanics. Similarly, any time you energy cap is minute damage losses that can add up. If you lose 40 energy you lose a 10-20k jab + the 2 chi that would give you a BK of 60-100k + dot + any chance of a combo breaker proc. You start to see that every 40 energy lost in a fight is worth maybe 150-200k, which if 800k was 3% dps then 200k is a little 1% dps, which is back to the same you're gaining for reforging. And you can lose 40 energy several times over with inefficient movement etc.. What about throwing in expel harm to avoid capping energy, or jade lightning or fire blossom.

    I've realised at this point this might seem like a rant, but I merely wanted to point out that as long as we maintain a level of haste that works for our play style, then we will generally find there are greater gains made by playstyle and improvement on fight mechanics than there will be on finding the most optimal balance of stats. Of course it is still worth it to balance the stats perfectly in a min max world, but this explains why people with vastly different stats and play styles can beat theoretically better geared or refined toons.

  10. #10
    The Patient
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    At ~4-4.5k haste and Ascension as other have said you won't be able to spend energy fast enough to make it worth while anymore. As the person a head of me has said make sure you use CD's right ToK is amazing on pretty much everything in HoF and a large amount of ToES. On a large amount of fights you might as well drop FoF as you need to move before you can fully channel it even with a large amount of haste.
    Tophh formerly of Bloodhoof, now of Spirestone.

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