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  1. #1

    Haste vs Crit/Mastery

    I was wondering what you guys & gals thought about haste vs. mastery/crit? (for resto)

    I'm a mastery/crit person myself...but lately I've been seeing quite a few shamans with 6k+ haste (unbuffed).
    I know shamans have always been one of those classes that doesn't really stack a certain stat, or there's no real "right" way to do it, but those of you using a heavy haste set-up, how is it working for you? Do you find you do more efficient healing with haste over heavy mastery/crit? Do you have mana issues?

    I'd imagine heavy haste is really only achievable with a certain amount of gear. At what point did you switch to haste? I've just started healing with another resto shaman in my 10 man guild & we're almost neck and neck, sometimes he's ahead and other times I'm ahead...we seem pretty evenly skilled/geared.

    Anyway he's reforging/gemming more for haste than crit/mastery. I've reforged/gemmed mostly away from haste and into mastery/crit.

    My guild is currently 6/6, 6/6 & starting work on Terrace tonight & probably hard mode MSV tomorrow.

  2. #2
    I dont theorycraft or anything, this is just my personal thoughts.

    I think mastery/crit is better for progression raiding just because riptide already gives us reduce cast time and its more mana efficient. The haste build will probably beat you on farmed fights because he can heal the people faster and doesnt have to worry about mana on farmed fights as well as people arent dropping as low because they know the fight.

    1st boss in toes haste will probably beat you
    you will probably beat haste guy on tsulong
    lei shei will probably be a tie, although you might come out ahead near end depending on how low your tanks dip.
    Sha you wont be able to see his healing but haste guy might come out ahead because those orbs give you full mana and i was able to spam healing surge most that fight

    Once you start heroic msv though I put mastery/crit above haste build
    Last edited by zyrxy; 2012-12-05 at 06:37 PM.

  3. #3
    I get mastery to 50% then go all crit but only after I'm at the haste breakpoint for an extra tick of HS and HTT which is 3306 for goblins such as myself.

  4. #4
    Exact same deal as it was in Cataclysm, except haste is now worth even less due to more constrained mana regen and TC not being ridiculously OP.

    Bottom line: Mastery and Crit will benefit you a lot more if your mana is constrained or if your raid is taking enough damage to routinely lower someone's health by a lot. You just don't see that in Normal difficulty raids, so who "wins the meters" is then dependent on who got the heal there first rather than who is actually healing for more. Haste is fun for topping meters and wasting mana, but generally a bad idea in progression.

  5. #5
    Herald of the Titans Seriss's Avatar
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    I stick to 45-50% mastery and reforge haste to crit. I don't think the totem haste breakpoints are all that viable as I recall HST before it expires anyway, and I've read that totem tick timers are sort of buggy anyway... In any case, I recall my totems too often to worry about additional ticks.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by mashanu View Post
    I get mastery to 50% then go all crit but only after I'm at the haste breakpoint for an extra tick of HS and HTT which is 3306 for goblins such as myself.
    Don't bother going for second haste break point, its only gives a extra tick to our totems and those are bugged atm.

  7. #7
    Yeah I tried it out last night in Terrace just to see and I was having some pretty major mana issues on Tsulong and Lei Shi.
    We are 2 healing, too, which was unexpected...I'll be going back to my normal mastery/crit set up today.

    Farm nights I can see it being nice but yea if the extra ticks are buggy anyway, there's no point really.

    Ok well, thanks for the input

  8. #8
    the thing is you can never really call having more haste more efficient as you are not getting the mana returns that crit would give you.
    As you are doing normals the sheer damage of hc's won't be there and a lot of it is sniping the heals where haste will obviously help you as long as you can maintain regen.


    Soon as you start going into hc's though I would advise 50% mastery then as much crit as possible. With tidal waves up I currently have around 70% crit chance on healing surge which is best for regen and ouput for single target at the moment.


    Hope this helps

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Firery View Post
    the thing is you can never really call having more haste more efficient as you are not getting the mana returns that crit would give you.
    As you are doing normals the sheer damage of hc's won't be there and a lot of it is sniping the heals where haste will obviously help you as long as you can maintain regen.


    Soon as you start going into hc's though I would advise 50% mastery then as much crit as possible. With tidal waves up I currently have around 70% crit chance on healing surge which is best for regen and ouput for single target at the moment.


    Hope this helps
    So (even assuming you have 4pc from riptide constantly rolling RT) you're claiming to have around (70%- 30% (from TW) - 5% (4pc)=) 35% unbuffed crit.

    Unlikely.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Zues View Post
    So (even assuming you have 4pc from riptide constantly rolling RT) you're claiming to have around (70%- 30% (from TW) - 5% (4pc)=) 35% unbuffed crit.

    Unlikely.
    I think they were just talking about healing surge crit, not crit in general.

  11. #11
    Haste is higher theoretical throughput than Crit or Mastery is. However, that additional throughput (outside of haste breakpoints, which are largely unobtainable outside of the first HR one since totem breakpoints are bugged) is gained from being able to cast more spells in a set window of time, directly increasing mana consumption by the same percentage. The extra throughput from Crit/Mastery costs no extra mana at all.

    For there to be value in stacking haste (once you are past that initial breakpoint which is less than 1000 haste rating with Ancestral Swiftness specced), you have to have the mana support to be able to properly take advantage of it. I don't think we have that level of mana, at any Spirit level in current gear levels for it to even be close to worth it. If you stack 5% extra haste, but don't have the mana to cast 5% more spells, you lose a lot of the value of having that haste. Crit/Mastery are both not so significantly below Haste from a pure HPS standpoint that it will be worthwhile.

    Breakpoints and HPS aside, the other argument for stacking haste is that it gives you more burst, and just makes landing an emergency heal on a low health tank/player feel more responsive. I think that Shaman mechanics kind of play against that strategy, because you will have Tidal Waves up for the majority of single target direct heals, which makes HW/GHW faster than the equivalent spells of any other healing spec. When you're already at a ~1.5 second cast time near baseline, you just don't feel that extra responsiveness that another class might from stacking haste to not be stuck with a 2.2 second cast time.

  12. #12
    Haste is bugged currently , get the smallest cap possible
    Mastery to 50%
    Crit the rest
    Dont drop any spirit though and reforge into spirit if your gear has none.

  13. #13
    Yep I went back to my crit/mastery set up. It worked MUCH better for clearing Terrace and our 1st hard mode kill last night.
    It's a shame haste is bugged, though...I remember the Sunwell days when all we did was stack haste and spam chain heal :P Good times.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Zues View Post
    So (even assuming you have 4pc from riptide constantly rolling RT) you're claiming to have around (70%- 30% (from TW) - 5% (4pc)=) 35% unbuffed crit.

    Unlikely.
    Why unbuffed? I'd assume that he'd be referring to his crit % while raiding.

    So 30% after the 5% raid buff.

    In iLvL 472 gear I have a 20% crit chance with raid buffs, that's not counting Flask and Food.
    I could see somebody getting up to 30% crit with much better gear if that's what their aim is.

    I do however, lean toward a very low spirit build that probably isn't ideal, but I really like crit, I gem and enchant for it over Spirit, so you never know they could be doing the same thing.

  15. #15
    The Patient pouca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cathina View Post
    Don't bother going for second haste break point, its only gives a extra tick to our totems and those are bugged atm.
    You are right and it seems the information has not reached every shaman ears...

    STOP bothering with the 20 % haste break point, IT'S bugged.


    To OP :

    You say " I've been seeing quite a few shamans with 6k+ haste (unbuffed)" so what ? Personnaly I have seen quite a few warriors with spirit plate.

    Are you really thinking it could be a good strategy ? 6k to get to wich break points ? One more tick on riptide (5676/5199 GB) one more tick on healing rain (7613/7116 GB) ?

    Stats priorities for Rshaman are fairly simple :
    Enougth spirit
    Haste untill reasonable break points 871/441 or 3039/2588 if EM speced
    Then mastery and crit are rougthly equivalent (IMHO)
    Some say Mastery is better because it improves healing when you need it. Some say crit is superior because of resurgence,
    Anyway it's not probably an enormous advantage for one or the other and because you have already reforged many pieces to get enougth spirit and your haste break point, the best you can do is to trade very few % of mastery or crit.

    Edit : Tibbee's explanation is very good, he shows why we don't need more haste at the moment.
    Last edited by pouca; 2012-12-07 at 11:39 PM.

  16. #16
    I see a lot of guides recommending stacking mastery to 50%.

    What's so magical about the 50% mastery breakpoint?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by xor7486 View Post
    I see a lot of guides recommending stacking mastery to 50%.

    What's so magical about the 50% mastery breakpoint?
    There is no breakpoint, 50% is just an arbitrary number that people fling out to have something to go for. It's the simple way of saying "Mastery and crit are balanced," but the average player can't deal with that. They need numbers.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by xor7486 View Post
    I see a lot of guides recommending stacking mastery to 50%.

    What's so magical about the 50% mastery breakpoint?
    50% is such a sexy number, it turns people on.

    On a serious note, people believe 50% is a softcap, people need breakpoints in their head or they aren't happy. I am for one off them. Though, I do not see any excuse going below that number as it will decrease your healing by a fair margin (and I suck at math, so someone can give a tabel for mastery) so I figured 50% is a good start for beginners and to have something to look out for. If there is no softcap in their heads they mindlessly stack it, which isn't all bad, but imo going for Crit is a better way to spend gems/reforge for then Mastery. Resurgence is very helpful, specially if you stack Int + stat gems instead of Spirit, also Ancestral Awakening is also a reason.

  19. #19
    Mechagnome
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    resurgence seems tailored toward regen while tank or single target healing. if your raid healing 25's you dont cast many single target heals, so is crit still the viable regen stat? i cant recall exact numbers but i know it returns no mana on HR and only a very small ammount on chain heal?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Viggers View Post
    resurgence seems tailored toward regen while tank or single target healing. if your raid healing 25's you dont cast many single target heals, so is crit still the viable regen stat? i cant recall exact numbers but i know it returns no mana on HR and only a very small ammount on chain heal?
    I am in a 25 man guild and i do cast a lot of single target spells while I switch to Chain heal once in a while and put HR down when I know it'll hit 5+ people when they take dmg, it's a lot more mana efficient and high hps boost. Using Healing Rain and Chain Heal should be used in dmg burst, when it's calm you use single target spells. Chain Heal gives mana back from resurgence, but imo it's very low on hps because it's unreliable.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...khh/details/7/
    Last edited by Cathina; 2012-12-08 at 03:17 PM.

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