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  1. #1

    Patch 5.3 mage buffs!

    Now that 5.3 is coming out next week, I had a few questions about mage changes. These questions are regarding pve raiding only (and to a degree, min-maxing).

    1. Aside from the flat damage increase to AE, blizzard, and FS, are there any spec specific changes being made? I remember reading maybe a month or two ago that there was a good possibility that depending on your spec, blizzard and flamestrike were going to be instant (similar to reign of fire now and the old flamestrike respectively). Did I just read someone's hopeful speculations or was it real?

    2. With the living bomb buff, will it be as good as NT for single target? For cleave 2-3 targets? Or will it strictly be for mass AoE? What's the logic/goal behind removing the explosion damage cap of 3 targets to all?

    3. With the duration increase to IW equaling the cooldown, will it be a possible replacement for evocation/invoker's energy on fights where you take constant damage?

    4. Why is flameglow getting nerfed again? Isn't it already weak and borderline never used?

    5. I don't understand the mirror image change, can someone explain the reasoning? (lol)


    Thanks

  2. #2
    Stood in the Fire
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    1. No, blizzard and FS only got dmg increases and won't be instant as rain of fire.
    2. LB will be better than NT for single target fights. For cleave fights, NT will be better. And they removed the explosion cap as the explosion damage is really low now. But I don't know the exact numbers of targets where LB could be better than NT or FB. Maybe never, but LB is better than NT for single targets.
    3. You could, but there won't be a big difference as you have to use IW ~ twice as often as Invo, means 2x GCD for 50sec buff vs. 3s casting Evo (without haste) for 60sec +15% dmg. And ofc absorb vs. heal + IW is instant, so you can move.
    4.
    Flameglow (SOURCE)
    What about smaller hits like melee rogue damage? 30% of that gets absorbed too.
    We recently made a change on the 5.3 PTR to make it so that the max absorb value equals to 15% of the mages spellpower, but no more than 30% of the total damage of the incoming attack.

    So let's say a mage has 21000 spell power, Flameglow will absorb no more than 30% of the incoming attack up to the amount of 3150 damage . We hope that this change will make it so the talent continues to be attractive, but not so powerful against characters who hit more often but for less damage. Please feel free to provide us with any feedback you have about this change.
    5. No idea.
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  3. #3
    might i ad a question to this thread:
    wich aoe is the more powerfull? ae spamm or blizzard (after flamestrike ofc)? The specific encounter i have in mind is tortos bats where i atm is constantly wondering wich i might be better off doing.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    might i ad a question to this thread:
    wich aoe is the more powerfull? ae spamm or blizzard (after flamestrike ofc)? The specific encounter i have in mind is tortos bats where i atm is constantly wondering wich i might be better off doing.
    neither of those for Tortos...Frost Bomb then Frost Nova right before the bomb explodes to take advantage of Shatter or NT everything and continue on boss or adds..GG

  5. #5
    Correct me if Im wrong, but I think the mirror image change was because the images needed to be in range (like 20 yards or something) to cast fire blast. The change simply replaces the damage from fire blast with additional frost bolt damage for the images.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastamage View Post
    neither of those for Tortos...Frost Bomb then Frost Nova right before the bomb explodes to take advantage of Shatter or NT everything and continue on boss or adds..GG
    LOL until now i had no idea i could have more then 3 nethertempests up^^ hmm will this still be bis with the aoe buffs? spamming neher tempest that is (dont rly like frostbomb in raids, only fight i ever used it on was windlord)

  7. #7
    Bloodsail Admiral spaace's Avatar
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    AOE buff was added a while ago..

    We're getting nerfs..
    and more nerfs...

    and living bomb getting "fixed" again.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    AOE buff was added a while ago..

    We're getting nerfs..
    and more nerfs...

    and living bomb getting "fixed" again.
    AoE buff ain't live, Living bomb "fix" is a net dps gain even at 0 haste.. IW ain't really a nerf as we never really used it anyways and well flameglow is kinda the same for PvE

  9. #9
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mastamage View Post
    neither of those for Tortos...Frost Bomb then Frost Nova right before the bomb explodes to take advantage of Shatter or NT everything and continue on boss or adds..GG
    If you nova on that fight your guild is going to hate you.

  10. #10
    1. That and bomb changes are the only thing really changing, and no that was thing you heard is not real.

    2. The bombs will be
    LB - 1-2 targets
    NT - 2-5 targets
    FB - 5+
    The removal of the explosion cap it's just due to the explosion not doing nearly as much damage as it was previously.

    3. Maybe, but it still seems the superior talent is Invocation for almost every fight.

    4. Just a nerf for pvp really, was too strong against dots.

    5. Before, Mirror Images only had a range of 20 on their Fire Blast. If they were over 20 yards away, they wouldn't FB and it was a very slight dps loss on MI. All this change does is make it so you don't have to worry about being 20 yards or closer away from the boss to get the full effectiveness of MI.

  11. #11
    What exactly changed on LB that makes it better then NT for single target? I'm assuming they kept the 3 target limit for applying LB so if LB is better then NT, wouldn't it also be optimal for 3 targets or less vs NT?

    And on fights with over 4 targets do mages really maintain 4+ NT dots rolling as Fire?

  12. #12
    High Overlord Adeltor's Avatar
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    Yea, can anyone actually go into more deep analysis of this LB > NT thing for single target? I'm really kinda lost here now, why would LB be better all of a sudden, seeing as currently on live NT has even higher place than Fireball on Recount/Skada meters FOR Single target fights, like, say, Jin Rokh?

    What "Explosion" damage makes LB "the viable choice" for single target now?
    Last edited by Adeltor; 2013-05-18 at 11:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    I want to feel the zomg in my dpspants when I throw pyros at someones face. How do you keep that feeling of 'zomg' in your pants while still nerfing throughput?

    Sig by Shyama!

  13. #13
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    24.36% SP per tick, 12 times for NT. 50% total damage cleave.

    80.36% SP per tick, 4 times for LB, then 10% of total assuming non-crits as explosion. Explosion is only cleave.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Adeltor View Post
    Yea, can anyone actually go into more deep analysis of this LB > NT thing for single target? I'm really kinda lost here now, why would LB be better all of a sudden, seeing as currently on live NT has even higher place than Fireball on Recount/Skada meters FOR Single target fights, like, say, Jin Rokh?

    What "Explosion" damage makes LB "the viable choice" for single target now?
    I made a thread on the US WoW Mage forums about it here:

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8796090698

    Another thread with the same topic was made here:

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8796362156

    Unfortunately, other than a post from Lhivera, I can't get anything definitive. He says LB is better for single target, but my main beef with LB is that realppm procs make up a huge part of our DPS right now and I don't think he's taking that into account. Assuming the periodic is the same, the explosion damage is "a bonus" on single target, but I think that bonus might get negated by less trinket/metagem/jade spirit procs.

    A metagem or Time Warp-hasted NT ticks 20 times versus 7 for Living Bomb. That's a pretty big disparity. That might very well make NT still better.

    If anyone thinks LB is better on single target, I'd love to hear from you here or on that thread. Otherwise I'm planning on checking my uptimes on logs in 5.3. Thanks.

    Disclaimer: I'm not a huge math buff so I'm not necessarily saying one is better than the other, just looking for input.
    Last edited by MrExcelion; 2013-05-19 at 12:03 AM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    If you nova on that fight your guild is going to hate you.
    I only nova once they're in place. Never had a problem with it yet.

  16. #16
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrExcelion View Post
    Unfortunately, other than a post from Lhivera, I can't get anything definitive. He says LB is better for single target, but my main beef with LB is that realppm procs make up a huge part of our DPS right now and I don't think he's taking that into account. Assuming the periodic is the same, the explosion damage is "a bonus" on single target, but I think that bonus might get negated by less trinket/metagem/jade spirit procs.

    A metagem or Time Warp-hasted NT ticks 20 times versus 7 for Living Bomb. That's a pretty big disparity. That might very well make NT still better.

    If anyone thinks LB is better on single target, I'd love to hear from you here or on that thread. Otherwise I'm planning on checking my uptimes on logs in 5.3. Thanks.

    Disclaimer: I'm not a huge math buff so I'm not necessarily saying one is better than the other, just looking for input.
    The entire point of RPPM is so that event frequency shouldn't change uptimes. NT has more potential triggers, but each is lower chance due to the time between the last possible event.

    For my own haste w/gem, I get 8 LB ticks, and 23 NT ticks. That means NT does 560.28% spell power, and LB does 642.88% spell power from the DoT portion alone.

  17. #17
    Thanks for the input. If it's indeed better on single-target, I can see myself using it on H-Jin, H-Tortos (bat kiting), H-Megarea, H-Ji-Kun, H-Iron Qon, and Lei Shen. Horridon, Council, Durumu, Primordius, and Dark Animus might be NT fights, but this is just a very preliminary stab at it. Not 13/13 heroic either so some of those fights I'm not sure about on heroic.

    How much of a single target difference do you think we're looking at by switching to LB? In terms of how much it'd buff our single target DPS. <2% DPS?

  18. #18
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    1. No specc changes. Not at all.

    2. LB will be better for completely single target, but on fights with 2+ targets, or even adds at ANY point in the fight, it's significantly worse than NT; there was no logic really. It's stupid. The explosion now hits for NOTHING.

    3. No. IW is now 100% worthless in PvE (I actually made a thread about that where people agreed it's useless)

    4. Because Blizzard is retarded and listens to bads. Yes, it's pretty good against DoTs in PvP, but the change they made just nerfs Burst, which is AGAINST what they were trying to do. Blizzard completely went full retard on Flameglow.

    5. Fire Blast is removed to make them consistently cast their one spell. It should be a damage increase overall, but a small one at that.

    PS: Why is the title "buffs"? the only "buff" is our AoEs. LB now goes from crap to worthless, IW is now 100% worthless, and Flameglow is also worthless. Overall, this is a nerf with a moderate increase to our AoEs, because GC doesn't want us spamming NT (which we'll continue to do anyways)
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2013-05-19 at 01:57 AM.

  19. #19
    Bloodsail Admiral spaace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    For my own haste w/gem, I get 8 LB ticks, and 23 NT ticks. That means NT does 560.28% spell power, and LB does 642.88% spell power from the DoT portion alone.
    So, in the end.. LB 1-3(or 15+), NT for anything else?

    Still wondering on the tooltip for LB.. Unlimited targets..
    Last edited by spaace; 2013-05-19 at 03:08 AM.
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  20. #20
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spaace View Post
    So, in the end.. LB 1-3(or 15+), NT for anything else?

    Still wondering on the tooltip for LB.. Unlimited targets..
    LB is restricted to 3 targets. The explosion isn't. NT has the advantage of dealing 50% of its damage to a secondary target, increasing its worth for multidot. LB just has 10% of total DoT as cleave, and only at the end. At least with NT there's partial credit for mobs being in and out of range, or dying.

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