Thread: 90 Talents

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  1. #21
    IDK, Invocation still seems broken to me. I like that it's a 10 sec CD, and the buff isn't that bad and the mobility with it is good, but it's supposed to drop your MP5 by 50% not 65%... I go from about 28k regen while casting to down near 8k...

  2. #22
    Mechagnome Televators's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seadog View Post
    So .. you get a talent that gives you mana back ...... buffs your damage ... you complain cause you got to stand still for a few seconds ?
    Damn ... id make it passive ... more dmg to mages more mana regen for free .. that seems right ...
    Take a look at dk 90 talents and GL using them on bosses ... yet .... you are the ones to complain ..
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    I created a thread on this a few days back and I agree entirely. All 3 of our level 90 talents are nothing more than straight DPS buffs that require constant maintenance. It doesn't enrich gameplay, it's not a decision and the fact that it's "easy" once raid encounters are memorized doesn't make them good talents. IW is the only serious choice in PvP and the design is just silly. Ugh...

  3. #23
    I like the 90 talents, I think they are some of the better designed 90 talents in the game.

    I also like being rewarded for being better at small maintenancy things, because while the damage that these talents provide us is factored into our damage, it isn't balanced around 100% uptime, which we can easily have with all 3 talents.

  4. #24
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    I like the 90 talents, I think they are some of the better designed 90 talents in the game.

    I also like being rewarded for being better at small maintenancy things, because while the damage that these talents provide us is factored into our damage, it isn't balanced around 100% uptime, which we can easily have with all 3 talents.
    Well you'd be wrong, and fortunately the majority of mage feedback disagrees with you. DPS is irrelevant, the fact of the matter is that they are not fun, and synergise poorly with the various mage specs.

    If you want a well designed talent tier, look at the Level 90 priest talents.
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Yet, despite the 90 talents mages are still dominating DPS meters?
    The talents (Invocation in particular) can be frustrating to manage but they require you to actually think about what you're doing rather than mindlessly spamming your rotation.

    These threads have been around since launch, if people can't get used to the talents re-roll; once you're used to them it's honestly fine.
    I'm used to them, and can play with them effectively. They're still irritating and could use some quality of life changes. Specifically on fights like heroic Blade Lord and Lei Shi.

    And no matter how you swing it, IW needs some love. There just isn't on demand damage that you can find and take on a lot of fights.

  6. #26
    I don't like the 90 tier at all. IW would be good if it wasn't a shield, just returns mana over 8 seconds then 30% increased damage for 15 seconds or w/e.

  7. #27
    i like rune of power but i'd honestly it be a CD than what it is currently. with how it is now it's the only one i like at all anyway lol

    or hell remove the cast time and make it like Sniper training for Surv, standing still for 4 seconds causes a rune to appear.
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  8. #28
    Dreadlord nimryas's Avatar
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    I'm totally unsatisfied with the way blizzard handled mage tier 90 talents... When i saw some of the talents other classes got I totally expected our new talents to bring a new dimension to our playstyle, or at least bring something nice and shiny! Instead they gave us a rather static dmg buff which ofcourse gives us a real good dps boost, but it's very very boring, I believe the last tier talents should be something you wanted since picking the first talent at level 10. A straight up dmg boost isnt something i would be looking forward to.. especially when its the last talent i get for a long time!

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  9. #29
    Yeah Invocation means constantly babysitting a buff and using Evocation all the damn time, RoP is a pain if the fight requires a lot of movement (and don't they all) and IW is dependent on constant AOE damage to even use... all of them just seem to get in the way of the rotation you were using up to that point.

    What really sucked though was the removal of the changes they were planning to make to Invocation that would've meant you stayed buffed as long as your mana was full, and it started expiring as soon as your mana dipped below full. That would've been so much more convenient, no more evoking before every single pull, or even when fighting mobs while questing...
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  10. #30
    I hate Rune of Power with a passion. Not only does it root you to the ground, you still have to think ahead if you have to move and place the damm thing in a good spot. If you screw up on that, it is another 2 or 3 cycles of no DPS to reposition.

    Invocation is a bit better, but I really prefered that I didn't have to stop DPS every 40 secs just to keep my damage output up.

    IW is a Frost Barrier that you are required to use. And even step in the fire on purpose. And again, just to keep up with the other DPS.

    Seriously, I would be much better without these talents. Or much better if they were simply optional, and our damage output were not balanced around them.
    Last edited by Madruga; 2012-12-13 at 12:37 AM.

  11. #31
    How do you propose making them optional without making them pointless or overpowered?

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    How do you propose making them optional without making them pointless or overpowered?
    buff our damage elsewhere and make the talents with different flavors instead of it being different damage buffs.

  13. #33
    The Lightbringer Mandible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridish View Post
    They aren't bad they are just so damn boring who wants to stand still channeling evocation for 5 sec during a boss fight.
    Pretty much all classes got boring lvl 90 talents. Have you seen rogues fx. One is to get a free redirect, another is a thrown ability and last is to stack combat points - not exactly full of excitement, but still somewhat usefull.
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Agrias-Oaks View Post
    buff our damage elsewhere and make the talents with different flavors instead of it being different damage buffs.
    That doesn't answer the question.
    Without providing a damage buff that would make mages significantly more powerful than other mages (or any other class) as compensation for channeling for 5 seconds every 40 seconds, how would you implement Invocation? What would be the optional portion?

    How would you implement Rune of Power without making Mages want to stand in it 24/7 ?

  15. #35
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    That doesn't answer the question.
    Without providing a damage buff that would make mages significantly more powerful than other mages (or any other class) as compensation for channeling for 5 seconds every 40 seconds, how would you implement Invocation? What would be the optional portion?

    How would you implement Rune of Power without making Mages want to stand in it 24/7 ?
    • Invocation has been modified to provide a potent passive effect based on your specialization.
    o Arcane: Casting Arcane power now resets the cooldown of Evocation, and causes it to reduce the mana cost of your spells by 20% rather than increasing it.
    o Fire: Every time you deal direct Fire damage that does not critically strike, your critical strike chance with Fire spells will be increased by 10% stacking up to 10 times or until you deal a direct Fire damage critical strike with any spell except Inferno Blast.
    o Frost: Your Summon: Water Elemental spell now summons a Greater Water Elemental that does increased damage.

    • Rune of Power is now instant cast and can be cast twice before incurring a 10 second cooldown. The damage bonus has been increased to 20%, and will now be summoned at the Mage's feet rather than being a targetable spell.

    ---

    Just some suggestions. Offering a choice between cooldown damage and sustained damage.
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  16. #36
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Well you'd be wrong, and fortunately the majority of mage feedback disagrees with you. DPS is irrelevant, the fact of the matter is that they are not fun, and synergise poorly with the various mage specs.
    Sorry, but you cannot outright state that someone is 'wrong' simply because they disagree with you (or indeed the majority). DPS is very relevant, as it's what we're balanced around; if you don't find them fun because you're too used to having life easy just go re-roll, it really is as simple as that.

    The fact of the matter is, if you can't handle dealing with a buff or trying to optimise your play-style then you're too used to having everything handed to you on a plate.
    The way you quote priest talents as being well designed only re-enforces my point, really; you'd rather have some talent which just is a 'use-it-on-cooldown' ability than something that actually adds dynamics to an otherwise ridiculously easy-to-play class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shmeh View Post
    I'm used to them, and can play with them effectively. They're still irritating and could use some quality of life changes. Specifically on fights like heroic Blade Lord and Lei Shi.

    And no matter how you swing it, IW needs some love. There just isn't on demand damage that you can find and take on a lot of fights.
    Agreed about H Blade Lord and Lei Shi, especially as an Arcane player who likes RoP; but I can still manage and it's only a minor annoyance. Honestly in both fights (Blade Lord more so than Lei Shi, Lei Shi much easier to manage) I care much more about stack management and doing optimal DPS throughout the fight when I have to keep moving.

    So far the only fight where I've found IW to be the best choice (unless you're going Arcane) is Grand Empress; where there is fairly consistent AoE damage (don't forget you only need to absorb 30K which isn't a lot) to continually proc it in P1 and P3. P2 is a bit more laxxed from a damage point of view but there are still mechanics that will help you proc it. Agreed that it could use some tweaks though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    [RoP] will now be summoned at the Mage's feet rather than being a targetable spell.
    This is perhaps the only suggestion you made that I'd agree with.
    Last edited by Cycobi; 2012-12-13 at 12:19 PM.

  17. #37
    Those are interesting changes to be sure... but still far from optional.
    You'd definitely need to keep one up at as often as possible.

    I was merely trying to point out to Madruga that their wish to have Invocation or RoP still exist as talents but ones that didn't have to be used isn't something that could possibly work, because optimal use would still increase your damage so you'd still "have" to.

  18. #38
    Dreadlord Rickmagnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Sorry, but you cannot outright state that someone is 'wrong' simply because they disagree with you (or indeed the majority). DPS is very relevant, as it's what we're balanced around; if you don't find them fun because you're too used to having life easy just go re-roll, it really is as simple as that.

    The fact of the matter is, if you can't handle dealing with a buff or trying to optimise your play-style then you're too used to having everything handed to you on a plate.
    The way you quote priest talents as being well designed only re-enforces my point, really; you'd rather have some talent which just is a 'use-it-on-cooldown' ability than something that actually adds dynamics to an otherwise ridiculously easy-to-play class.



    Agreed about H Blade Lord and Lei Shi, especially as an Arcane player who likes RoP; but I can still manage and it's only a minor annoyance. Honestly in both fights (Blade Lord more so than Lei Shi, Lei Shi much easier to manage) I care much more about stack management and doing optimal DPS throughout the fight when I have to keep moving.

    So far the only fight where I've found IW to be the best choice (unless you're going Arcane) is Grand Empress; where there is fairly consistent AoE damage (don't forget you only need to absorb 30K which isn't a lot) to continually proc it in P1 and P3. P2 is a bit more laxxed from a damage point of view but there are still mechanics that will help you proc it. Agreed that it could use some tweaks though.



    This is perhaps the only suggestion you made that I'd agree with.
    So calling someone wrong for disagreeing is bad. Calling someone lazy for disliking our talents is good. Got it.

    I highly doubt anyone would consider maintaining these talents hard. If you do then maybe you've been playing Arcane for to long. What they are is boring or uncreative. I don't find that having to evocate or be rooted to the ground as compelling game play, I find it silly. Ask any other class if they'd like to be stuck on a tiny spot of land or have to twiddle their thumbs for 6 seconds every 40 for damage they're expected to have. It doesn't add complexity, it's just making us jump through hoops.
    Last edited by Rickmagnus; 2012-12-13 at 01:49 PM.
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  19. #39
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickmagnus View Post
    So calling someone wrong for disagreeing is bad. Calling someone lazy for disliking our talents is good. Got it.

    I highly doubt anyone would consider maintaining these talents hard. If you do then maybe you've been playing Arcane for to long. What they are is boring or uncreative. I don't find that having to evocate or be rooted to the ground as compelling game play, I find it silly. Ask any other class if they'd like to be stuck on a tiny spot of land or have to twiddle their thumbs for 6 seconds every 40 for damage they're expected to have. It doesn't add complexity, it's just making us jump through hoops.
    When people typically talk about changes as though they'd prefer more passive effects and less management (which is what the 90 talents are), or suggesting that the damage bonuses are buffed (which is ludicrous, personally) or have the damage buffs made passive yes, I'm going to comment on it.

    I dislike the 90 talents and really think they could use some quality of life changes, but I can still deal with them and I still try and find ways to optimise myself on each fight. I don't comment about how they're frustrating to manage or how they could be made easier, because the reality is that Mages as a whole have life incredibly easy; having these talents makes the spec more difficult (to some, can mean more complex) and raises the skill-cap a bit.

    I know for a fact they wouldn't [sit around idly while channeling every 40s], which is probably why they'd take RoP or IW; you're not limited to Invocation and people who complain about RoP are probably using it sub-optimally. IW I have already said could use some tweaks but otherwise is in a decent place overall.

  20. #40
    Dreadlord Rickmagnus's Avatar
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    Most classes have it pretty easy though, but no other class has restrictions from their 90 talents like we do. Correct me if I'm wrong on that one since I don't recall all the talents. What Invocation essentially does is like asking a rogue to stop auto-attacking every 40 seconds for 6 secs to reapply his S&D. RoP is like asking a hunter to spend a second of his time every time he moved to drop a trap. Honestly I don't think it adds to our game play, it detracts from us by making us preform menial boring tasks in order to ensure our dps is as it should be. I have no issue with adding some sort of maintainable buff for us to have, but if they cant do it creatively, which seems like what they tried, they should at least do it simple so it doesn't feel like you're getting screwed over.
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