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  1. #1

    [Arcane] windlord mel'jarak HELP

    Hi I am going to be raiding tonight as arcane for the first time I am worried about windlord. We are a 10m, cc 4 , tanking 4 + boss. Do I want to use a single target rotation and in which case what target should I dps. Or do I want to use arcane explosion + flamestrike and bomb refreshing and spamming all thru the first phase.

    Please help I have never played arcane before.

  2. #2
    May I ask why you would want to go arcane rather than fire for that fire?
    Nowish <Envy> Mythic stream, mostly War/WW monk PoV-> http://sv.twitch.tv/viss3

  3. #3
    If it's 4 target + boss... i believe using Living Bomb or Frost bomb and keeping a single target rotation (taking arcane barrage cleave into account) is the way to go. Flamestrike won't be any good but I'm not sure if arcane explosion can be of use, maybe while moving.

  4. #4
    well fire was nerfed in general. So i believed i should just move on from the weakest dps spec of the class. I can be completely wrong too.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-05 at 11:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by vilnya View Post
    If it's 4 target + boss... i believe using Living Bomb or Frost bomb and keeping a single target rotation (taking arcane barrage cleave into account) is the way to go. Flamestrike won't be any good but I'm not sure if arcane explosion can be of use, maybe while moving.
    in that case i guess i should hit arcane barrage at 6 as soon as possible ?

  5. #5
    just because 1 of 3 specs was nerfed does not mean it is the weakest.

  6. #6
    if you are playing nm raids it doesnt really matter what spec you play. all 3 are doing very similar dps now. arcane got some movement issues, so i wouldnt recommend that on movement fights. other than that play whatever you like. fire is still very good. i would even say its still the best on singletarget fights.

  7. #7
    The Patient elpadrino293's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onaprayer View Post
    well fire was nerfed in general. So i believed i should just move on from the weakest dps spec of the class. I can be completely wrong too.
    you are completely wrong. fire is not that bad. you were so far ahead of the rest of the pack, the nerf simply brings you back in line. it does NOT destroy the class or spec. play correctly and gear accordingly and you will still top your meters.

  8. #8
    living bomb with fireblast to spread it than normal roto barraging at 6
    Quote Originally Posted by -Ethos- View Post
    I literally die every time i see people using literally wrong.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by onaprayer View Post
    in that case i guess i should hit arcane barrage at 6 as soon as possible ?
    You can push it a little and dump any arcane missiles you got but it's gonna be very mana intensive if you keep blasting at that point... Dunno much more, been a while since I last touched arcane, i'm more of a fire spec fan...

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    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralikonik View Post
    if you are playing nm raids it doesnt really matter what spec you play. all 3 are doing very similar dps now. arcane got some movement issues, so i wouldnt recommend that on movement fights. other than that play whatever you like. fire is still very good. i would even say its still the best on singletarget fights.
    Single target Arcane is currently the best spec using Haste reforges and 6-stack camping with Scorch; even on fights with some movement it's better.
    Cleave fights (2-3 targets) are ROUGHLY equal, but if you get good RNG as Fire you'll pull ahead.
    Heavy AoE (10M Mel'jarak isn't classes as Heavy), Frost currently shines.

    If you want to play Arcane on that fight, personally I'd say reforge all out haste and take NT on 4 targets and assume normal single target rotation but don't 6-camp; Barrage at 6 stacks each time for cleave. Living Bomb with Fire Blast spread can work just as well, too. It's not too movement heavy so RoP is fine though you might want to take IW to help healers as it can get quite healing intensive later into the fight and has predictable damage spouts to get the 30% buff.

    Quote Originally Posted by elpadrino293 View Post
    you are completely wrong. fire is not that bad. you were so far ahead of the rest of the pack, the nerf simply brings you back in line. it does NOT destroy the class or spec. play correctly and gear accordingly and you will still top your meters.
    As Fire the only way you can top your meters at the moment is if you get lucky. Before the nerf (yes, it was needed) you could have semi-bad RNG and still be OK; mid-top of the pack. Currently, if you DON'T have good RNG, you're towards the lower end if the other DPS in your guild are good enough.
    Fire isn't 'bad', but it's most certainly no longer the optimal spec.

  11. #11
    The Patient Brewswami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nowish View Post
    May I ask why you would want to go arcane rather than fire for that fire?
    If onaprayer was going to be arcane for most fights and fire for wind lord to optimize you would have to regem/enchant/reforge all of your gear. Obviously, nobody would want to do that for normal modes. With gear setup for arcane, I'm not sure fire would even be better then arcane for this fight(luck plays a huge role here)

    Quote Originally Posted by vilnya View Post
    Flamestrike won't be any good but I'm not sure if arcane explosion can be of use, maybe while moving.
    Can someone please explain to me why using Flamestrike is GOOD for fire but for arcane it's not? Mastery affects all schools of magic and FS is more then 2x the dmg of Arc Explosion with the variation in gcd vs castime being affected by your haste level for me it's 1.32(gcd) vs 1.76 FS castime. To the ppl recommending Arc Explosion for Arcane, why is it then not good for fire? Some things to note which are specific to the arcane spec. Flamestrike cost 18000 mana and Arc Explosion cost 9000. Arc Explosion has a 30% chance to build or maintain your charges. On windlord I could see using Arc Explosion to build your stacks up to 6 so you can barrage but I would also throw flamestrike down. And on fights like Grand Empress or any fight as arcane when there is short bursts of aoe to be done I see Flamestrike > Arc Explosion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ralikonik View Post
    if you are playing nm raids it doesnt really matter what spec you play. all 3 are doing very similar dps now. arcane got some movement issues, so i wouldnt recommend that on movement fights. other than that play whatever you like. fire is still very good. i would even say its still the best on singletarget fights.
    This is just LOL. There is a reason all the top geared mages no longer have a fire spec. Fire is by far now the worst of the 3 specs for single target. It performs well and possibly the best on fights like windlord/HC Protectors etc. That is if you are gemmed for crit. Very few ppl are going to want to regem and reforge back and forth in between fights so fire is imo not worth having as an off spec anymore. Frost seems to be the better OS choice for heavy aoe fights as you can gem for haste or int and be setup close to optimal for both. With no crit gems fire would be such an rng pain in the butt that more then often you are going to be behind frost on a fight like windlord. If your guild is progressing to where the next heroic boss to kill is HC Windlord or HC protectors then I could see redoing all your gear and going crit gem fire and then changing it back when you kill them. Other then that, you should probably just extinguish fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by elpadrino293 View Post
    you are completely wrong. fire is not that bad. you were so far ahead of the rest of the pack, the nerf simply brings you back in line. it does NOT destroy the class or spec. play correctly and gear accordingly and you will still top your meters.
    Again, I whole heartily disagree and so does the top mages in the best guilds. I have looked at many logs of guild working on heroics this week and the ones playing fire are failing miserably on single target fights. Either middle of the pack or just above the tank. These are the same players that on the same fight were at the top every time on the same single target fights prior to 5.1. I'm guessing you are just playing with bad dps or you over gear them.
    Jobahlie-Mage- Only of it's kind since Vanilla WoW

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Brewswami View Post
    Again, I whole heartily disagree and so does the top mages in the best guilds. I have looked at many logs of guild working on heroics this week and the ones playing fire are failing miserably on single target fights. Either middle of the pack or just above the tank. These are the same players that on the same fight were at the top every time on the same single target fights prior to 5.1. I'm guessing you are just playing with bad dps or you over gear them.
    well then enlighten us all and post some logs. many mages (including me) tried frost/arcane this week. that doesnt mean fire is worse.
    i remember a similar discussion a few weeks ago about frost vs fire pre 5.1. many said frost was doing nearly the same dps as fire. but in fact fire was miles ahead. we will see in a few weeks.

  13. #13
    The Patient Brewswami's Avatar
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    I will post logs in my next post but i can't believe you would show such certainty in your claim without looking at them yourself. They are very revealing.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-06 at 02:30 AM ----------

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...H/Arcane_Mage/

    Elegon 25H
    top 10 244k-202k
    40th place is 188k. (arcane)
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...25H/Fire_Mage/

    The highest I see from a fire mage since Dec 1st is 198k then there are only 3 others who have posted 190k+ as fire.
    The mages as arcane only have a 85=90% uptime on rune of power or worse so it shows they had to deal with movement. Also, the final phase of elegon favors fire because you double dip your dmg with combustion with all your cds and bloodlust.

    So arcane mages are doing 40-50k more dmg on elegon then fire mages and that is with gear that is not optimized for arcane. Since everyone has only had 1 week to adjust from having all crit gear to avoiding crit like the plague. When arcane mages get all mastery/haste gear then the gap will even be geater. It is not even close. I could link similar results for other single target fights that have some movement in them.

    On Gara'jal 25HC the best a fire mage has done is 119k, that would be 40th place on the arcane page.

    Now maybe all the top geared mages have gone arcane so there is not much testing being done on fire atm to show us if it is really keeping up or not. Well I doubt they would be doing that for no good reason and as I've said some of my in game mage friends that are 500+ ilvl are struggling as fire on non aoe heavy fights when before 5/1 they were dominating.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-06 at 02:50 AM ----------

    Here is a great example of Fire on Sha of fear. This is just 1 person on 1 fight but it shows what happens when you get bad crit streaks as can happen now with fire.

    Nov-20th pre 5.1 87959.8k dps(e) [89.3% uptime] http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=7150&e=7766
    Nov-27th post 5.1 pre hotfix(OP'ness) 95254.0k dps(e) [86.8% uptime] http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/a...?s=4478&e=4989
    Dec-4th post 5.1 post hotfix 64131.4k dps(e) [90.6% uptime] http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/i...?s=4216&e=4700

    The mage's uptime was actually the best on the most recent attempt which is to expect with more experience on a fight. Fire really failed him on that fight.
    Last edited by Brewswami; 2012-12-06 at 03:06 AM.
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  14. #14
    The Patient elpadrino293's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewswami View Post
    Again, I whole heartily disagree and so does the top mages in the best guilds. I have looked at many logs of guild working on heroics this week and the ones playing fire are failing miserably on single target fights. Either middle of the pack or just above the tank. These are the same players that on the same fight were at the top every time on the same single target fights prior to 5.1. I'm guessing you are just playing with bad dps or you over gear them.
    if by bad dps you mean other classes who are ranking on world of logs then yes i do play with bad dps. if you are middle of the pack or just above the tank, it is you that are the bad dps.

    12/5 protectors
    12/5 tsulong
    12/5 imperial viz

    just so you can see that others are ranking, the dashboard of last night. dashboard

    i was just lucky 3 out of 5 fights right? the only fights i didn't top where lei shi (death) and sha of fear (range). you put too much faith into simcraft or noxxic.

    THE SKY IS NOT FALLING

  15. #15
    The Patient Brewswami's Avatar
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    Tsulong
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/v7buc...?s=1243&e=1689
    vs
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/i...?s=1872&e=2230

    Sha of Fear
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/v7buc...?s=5521&e=6170
    vs
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/i...?s=4216&e=4700

    Not trying to compare guilds but the dps that you did on both Tsulong and Sha of Fear would have been at the bottom in the guild I compared yours with. Most of the players are the same ilvl as well. Some of yours are higher ilvl for the same class/spec but are doing 10%+ less dps. So it does seem as though the rest of your guild is under performing and you as fire are doing exactly what you should be doing which is low single target dps in comparison to what other classes/specs are capable of.

    P.S. I have never once mentioned simcraft of noxxic. I have been basing everything off of WOL which it just so happens simcraft agrees with atm.
    Last edited by Brewswami; 2012-12-06 at 04:32 AM.
    Jobahlie-Mage- Only of it's kind since Vanilla WoW

  16. #16
    The Patient elpadrino293's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewswami View Post
    Tsulong
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/v7buc...?s=1243&e=1689
    vs
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/i...?s=1872&e=2230

    Sha of Fear
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/v7buc...?s=5521&e=6170
    vs
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/i...?s=4216&e=4700

    Not trying to compare guilds but the dps that you did on both Tsulong and Sha of Fear would have been at the bottom in the guild I compared yours with. Most of the players are the same ilvl as well. Some of yours are higher ilvl for the same class/spec but are doing 10%+ less dps. So it does seem as though the rest of your guild is under performing and you as fire are doing exactly what you should be doing which is low single target dps in comparison to what other classes/specs are capable of.

    P.S. I have never once mentioned simcraft of noxxic. I have been basing everything off of WOL which it just so happens simcraft agrees with atm.
    you have to find comparable times. their tsulong kill is 90 seconds faster than my own guild's kill. faster kills mostly always lead to higher dps... not to mention the fact that Last Word used 6 healers and we used 4, which leaves their DPS with more damage to do. you are comparing apples to oranges.

    and you cannot compare sha of fear logs. when someone gets teleported out of range of the person who is logging things get messed up.

  17. #17
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elpadrino293 View Post
    you have to find comparable times. their tsulong kill is 90 seconds faster than my own guild's kill. faster kills mostly always lead to higher dps... not to mention the fact that Last Word used 6 healers and we used 4, which leaves their DPS with more damage to do. you are comparing apples to oranges.

    and you cannot compare sha of fear logs. when someone gets teleported out of range of the person who is logging things get messed up.
    I love how you're completely forgetting the second Fire Mage in your raid who's sitting on far less DPS than you despite being similar geared; and on Sha it seems he finally got a decent run in and had comparable DPS.
    Yes, fine, you were topping the meters in most of your raids, but you can't claim that your DPS are amazing when they don't consistently rank.

    If, by comparison, I take my logs from last night (where I was raiding Arcane) where I was 10 iLvls behind you (485, currently 487 due to upgrades) and I'm playing Arcane on Lei Shi (which is far from optimal) and I wasn't cleaving on Protectors, the difference isn't that great; despite the item level difference.
    Oh, and you'll understand what DPS I have to compete with when they can consistently rank on separate fights.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-bxfb6jp8pskv1a5l/ Terrace
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-ejlpn9fpv4d6kpcu/ Heart of Fear

    The only fights I feel I performed *really* badly on were Garalon (Scorch spam as Arcane is far from good when kiting >.>), Ta'yak where I screwed up on Tornado phase so lost a lot of DPS and Mel'jarak but I'm trying Arcane on it next week as I think it'll work fine with barrage cleave and NT multi-dotting.

    I'm not wanting to take anything away from you; you're clearly not a bad player, but at the moment Fire just isn't the best mage spec; else players from top guilds would be playing it, which they aren't.

  18. #18
    The Patient elpadrino293's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    I love how you're completely forgetting the second Fire Mage in your raid who's sitting on far less DPS than you despite being similar geared; and on Sha it seems he finally got a decent run in and had comparable DPS.
    Yes, fine, you were topping the meters in most of your raids, but you can't claim that your DPS are amazing when they don't consistently rank.

    If, by comparison, I take my logs from last night (where I was raiding Arcane) where I was 10 iLvls behind you (485, currently 487 due to upgrades) and I'm playing Arcane on Lei Shi (which is far from optimal) and I wasn't cleaving on Protectors, the difference isn't that great; despite the item level difference.
    Oh, and you'll understand what DPS I have to compete with when they can consistently rank on separate fights.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-bxfb6jp8pskv1a5l/ Terrace
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-ejlpn9fpv4d6kpcu/ Heart of Fear

    The only fights I feel I performed *really* badly on were Garalon (Scorch spam as Arcane is far from good when kiting >.>), Ta'yak where I screwed up on Tornado phase so lost a lot of DPS and Mel'jarak but I'm trying Arcane on it next week as I think it'll work fine with barrage cleave and NT multi-dotting.

    I'm not wanting to take anything away from you; you're clearly not a bad player, but at the moment Fire just isn't the best mage spec; else players from top guilds would be playing it, which they aren't.
    im not here to defend that other mage that was having connection issues throughout the night, and who is also 2500 crit rating behind me despite his ilvl... i'm simply showing that fire is not dead, or at the bottom of the meters, or just above the tanks like the previous posters have said. correct me if i'm wrong, but the entire point of the nerf was so that the difference wouldn't be that great. it was meant to bring fire back into line, because it was over the top.

    btw... your boomkin that hit multi-dotting that early in the fight on all 3 bosses of protectors is accomplishing nothing, other than padding the meters of course, if thats what you meant by the dps you contend with...
    Last edited by elpadrino293; 2012-12-06 at 10:30 AM.

  19. #19
    My friend ranked first in the world on Wind Lord as Arcane: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-1b...&e=4808#Krpane

    Frost Bomb is basically carrying him and allows him to spam Explosion.

    Keep in mind that you should put Frost Bomb on the boss after 1 pack has died.

  20. #20
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elpadrino293 View Post
    im not here to defend that other mage that was having connection issues throughout the night, and who is also 2500 crit rating behind me despite his ilvl... i'm simply showing that fire is not dead, or at the bottom of the meters, or just above the tanks like the previous posters have said. correct me if i'm wrong, but the entire point of the nerf was so that the difference wouldn't be that great. it was meant to bring fire back into line, because it was over the top.

    btw... your boomkin that hit multi-dotting that early in the fight on all 3 bosses of protectors is accomplishing nothing, other than padding the meters of course, if thats what you meant by the dps you contend with...
    Was thinking more of the Rogue rather than the Boomkin :P we're aware that the Boomkin was multidotting to get higher DPS, but my point was more that just because your DPS can rank, doesn't mean that they are necessarily *good*. I ranked on every single fight on those logs, but I know for a fact it's because Arcane is underplayed rather than me being good (I'm not saying this is the case with your DPS, just making a point).

    And, just a point (I know you can't avoid this so I do say this reservedly), but if you didn't cleave as Fire I doubt you'd pull the DPS you did on Protectors, so in a way your DPS isn't *true*, either.

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