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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by tehpwner View Post
    Frost always felt (to me to play) like a simpler, boring ret paladin.
    That's funny because I love playing my frost dk but playing my Ret pally feels like cutting little chunks off of my soul.

  2. #82
    Frost is waaaaay more forgiving than unholy is, and also has higher theoratical damage. Therefore 90% of the wow community goes frost. It is, however, about the strongest AoE spec there is due to the combination of D&D, mastery and Ebon Plaguebringer

  3. #83
    The Patient
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    Just sac the pet, I hate relying on that retard. Then fix/remove garry, cause he's also a fucking retarded...melee attacks? Not scaling with haste proper? RP cost barely worth it?

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Iso View Post
    RP cost barely worth it?
    Gargoyle costs almost twice as much runic power as a death coil, but it does almost nine times as much damage as a death coil.

    Do the maths.

  5. #85
    This might have something to do with it....

    http://oi49.tinypic.com/2ajoth.jpg

    UH also suffers from long ramp up time so target switching is painful.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Pieterman View Post
    It is, however, about the strongest AoE spec there is due to the combination of D&D, mastery and Ebon Plaguebringer
    Sustained AE is one of Unholy's two major advantages, yes. But there isn't very much of that. Most AE is burst and over very quickly.

    The only major advantage is its very strong execute. But again, that's only a big deal on fights with an important or buffed execute phase, like Elegon.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by loki504 View Post
    hey guys.

    i'm almost done lvling my dk. and i love uholy.
    but when i look on this forum. i rarely see unholy dk post.
    almost all of them are blood/frost. so is unholy dk still viable. or is it just to much behind frost in a raid?

    and if not why are there not more unholy dks? there sould be a reason for it right?
    http://www.simulationcraft.org/505/Raid_T14H.html

  8. #88
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    Death Knight -> Italiandk
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    Mage -> Icydeath

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by kaelleria View Post
    This might have something to do with it....

    http://oi49.tinypic.com/2ajoth.jpg

    UH also suffers from long ramp up time so target switching is painful.
    Rofl this was beautiful.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Italiandk View Post
    I think their values for Unholy diseases may be wrong. Look at the average disease damage values for Unholy in simulation craft:
    Blood Plague hit: 23.5k
    Blood plague crit: 47k

    Frost Fever hit: 15.9k
    Frost Fever crit: 31.9k

    Compare those to my logs:

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-1f...?s=1186&e=1454
    My average ilvl in the log above is 491-492, using an ilvl 489 Starshatter.
    Blood Plague tick is 22.3k, and average crit is 46.6k.
    Frost Fever is 16.7k average tick, 34.5k average crit.
    I did NOT go down and receive the spirit realm buff from that fight. I was up top dpsing the boss 100% of the time. Essentially, a patchwerk boss.

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-2o...ses&boss=60009
    An even older log. I still have the 489 Starshatter, but my ilvl is around 490-491.
    Blood Plague average tick is 21.4k, average crit tick is 46k.
    Average Frost Fever is 15.2k, average crit tick is 31.5k.

    Now, maybe Im misunderstanding what simulationcraft means when it says "Death_Knight_Unholy_T14H"...but Im assuming that means an Unholy DK with an average ilvl of 509. Is that an incorrect assumption? If it isnt, then simcraft disease numbers for Unholy DKs is low.

  11. #91
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rothulean1 View Post
    I think their values for Unholy diseases may be wrong.
    Yes, it's a known issue with simcraft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rothulean1 View Post
    Now, maybe Im misunderstanding what simulationcraft means when it says "Death_Knight_Unholy_T14H"...but Im assuming that means an Unholy DK with an average ilvl of 509. Is that an incorrect assumption? If it isnt, then simcraft disease numbers for Unholy DKs is low.
    Yes, you are assuming right: T14H means BiS gear so almost every item will be ilvl 509.
    Death Knight -> Italiandk
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  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Rothulean1 View Post
    I think their values for Unholy diseases may be wrong. Look at the average disease damage values for Unholy in simulation craft:
    Blood Plague hit: 23.5k
    Blood plague crit: 47k

    Frost Fever hit: 15.9k
    Frost Fever crit: 31.9k

    Compare those to my logs:

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-1f...?s=1186&e=1454
    My average ilvl in the log above is 491-492, using an ilvl 489 Starshatter.
    Blood Plague tick is 22.3k, and average crit is 46.6k.
    Frost Fever is 16.7k average tick, 34.5k average crit.
    I did NOT go down and receive the spirit realm buff from that fight. I was up top dpsing the boss 100% of the time. Essentially, a patchwerk boss.

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-2o...ses&boss=60009
    An even older log. I still have the 489 Starshatter, but my ilvl is around 490-491.
    Blood Plague average tick is 21.4k, average crit tick is 46k.
    Average Frost Fever is 15.2k, average crit tick is 31.5k.

    Now, maybe Im misunderstanding what simulationcraft means when it says "Death_Knight_Unholy_T14H"...but Im assuming that means an Unholy DK with an average ilvl of 509. Is that an incorrect assumption? If it isnt, then simcraft disease numbers for Unholy DKs is low.
    It may be slightly wrong, but its likely not enough to make us sim much higher. Lets say diseases were 10% more powerful than the sim suggests, (ticking for about 2-4k more), that would be a paltry 1% dps buff which, while decent, isn't huge at all in the long run.

    Furthermore, looking at a real example we see that their numbers actually may be correct. Here is the 2nd highest parse on 25h blade lord of a DK from method

    He is near BIS and his diseases are ticking on average for 2-4k less for blood plague, and almost exact for frost fever.

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/0yt5u...?s=1365&e=1753

    I don't have any explanation as to why your diseases were ticking for more than the sims, looking at my own logs, I don't have a similar situation. Its either a bug or you had nice rng. Although, you are currently logged out in dw frost gear with mastery reforging, if you had this reforging ( not sure if you did), it would explain why blood plague was hitting so much harder for you.

  13. #93
    How are actual results a bug? Tracking procs before using outbreak or unholy blight isn't rng, it's just common sense. And no, I'm not mastery reforged. Ive had to go frost because the sha hasnt dropped the axe.

    I've already run tests and posted to simcraft, which can be seen here: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...detail?id=1478

    Not only were simcraft numbers lower, but simcraft used a Potion of Mogu Power and in my own tests, I didn't. Secondly, simcraft diseases appear to ony have a 4.4-4.5% crit chance (actual crit chance of my character was 12.7%). My own test (which had 160ish total disease ticks for both bp and ff, simcraft had 150 each) had a crit chance around 11%. I don't need to tell anyone that losing that much crit chance is a huge chunk of damage.

    If simcraft numbers are not only lower but show a far lower crit chance, then no, the damage buff is not just 1%. Ive been preaching it seen beta: simcraft is understating unholy diseases by about 2-2.5% per disease. Now, this doesn't mean Unholy is fine and better than Frost...it most certainly isn't. It just means that the specs are basically even on damage.

    Also, for reference, here's my own tayak parse, showing far higher disease damage. http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-1f...?s=7649&e=8088

    Edit: Maybe I'm late to the party and this is common knowledge, but I always assumed diseases would suffer from the 5% crit suppression on bosses. I'm wondering if that isn't the case...that method DK also had a fairly high crit chance on his diseases.

    Edit 2: Btw, that Method link you posted was a poor example I think. I don't see him receiving the 5% crit buff. No leader of the pack, no arcane brilliance, nothing. That would make a huge difference in disease damage.
    Last edited by Rothulean1; 2012-12-12 at 04:03 PM.

  14. #94
    Dreadlord the0o's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    I enjoyed unholy in WOTLK, but the cataclysm changes killed the spec for me. Unholy had a 2 GCD rampup in WOTLK; this was changed to a massive 20-30 seconds. Unholy had the best AE in the entire game in WOTLK; this was changed to the worst and made very slow (improved slightly in MoP, admittedly, but still terrible compared to frost or any other DPS spec except maybe enhance). Scourge Strike hit hard in WOTLK; in cataclysm it was changed to a single rune and damage decreased dramatically. The gargoyle is a very weak DPS cooldown, barely worth the runic power it takes to cast. And so on and so forth.

    Meanwhile, frost addresses every single one of those problems. Quick rampup, instant burst AE, heavy hitting main ability (obliterate or frost strike), mobility, DPS cooldown gives massive strength on a short cooldown, etc.


    I miss WOTLK unholy AOE. If we had the glyph with undispellable diseases back then......... Oh wandering plague how i miss you......

    "Humility defeats pride, Master Yang has preached. Pride defeats man"


  15. #95
    Great work on this Rothulean. Reading through the link you provided it seems that a minimum you've got the simcraft crew to have a hard look at how unholy disease are being simmed.

    With regards to your logs showing diseases ticking harder than they shown on Simcraft I can confirm that I've had similar results. I raided on Monday with my current gear and was getting average ticks on both Frost Fever and Blood Plague that were around 2k higher than what simcraft predicted when I put my character through it.

    I was also getting crit results that would suggest simcraft is incorrect in using spell crit to calculate crit chances for diseases.

    So based on this simcraft could be wrong on two counts: a.) diseases ticking 15-20% softer than they should, and b.) crit chance being about 8% below what it should.

    If both a & b are correct then Unholy could be simming about 3- 4k below what it should (w T14 H gear). So not enough to put it above Frost, but enough to get it pretty damn close (leaving mechanics aside).

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Rothulean1 View Post
    How are actual results a bug? Tracking procs before using outbreak or unholy blight isn't rng, it's just common sense. And no, I'm not mastery reforged. Ive had to go frost because the sha hasnt dropped the axe.

    I've already run tests and posted to simcraft, which can be seen here: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...detail?id=1478

    Not only were simcraft numbers lower, but simcraft used a Potion of Mogu Power and in my own tests, I didn't. Secondly, simcraft diseases appear to ony have a 4.4-4.5% crit chance (actual crit chance of my character was 12.7%). My own test (which had 160ish total disease ticks for both bp and ff, simcraft had 150 each) had a crit chance around 11%. I don't need to tell anyone that losing that much crit chance is a huge chunk of damage.

    If simcraft numbers are not only lower but show a far lower crit chance, then no, the damage buff is not just 1%. Ive been preaching it seen beta: simcraft is understating unholy diseases by about 2-2.5% per disease. Now, this doesn't mean Unholy is fine and better than Frost...it most certainly isn't. It just means that the specs are basically even on damage.

    Also, for reference, here's my own tayak parse, showing far higher disease damage. http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-1f...?s=7649&e=8088

    Edit: Maybe I'm late to the party and this is common knowledge, but I always assumed diseases would suffer from the 5% crit suppression on bosses. I'm wondering if that isn't the case...that method DK also had a fairly high crit chance on his diseases.

    Edit 2: Btw, that Method link you posted was a poor example I think. I don't see him receiving the 5% crit buff. No leader of the pack, no arcane brilliance, nothing. That would make a huge difference in disease damage.
    I find myself agreeing with all parses you've linked so far, just find it strange why it seems to behave normally for others in the parses. Also as a note, that Method DK doesn't show him getting the 5% crit buff, but they don't have a feral in the raid, they do have a mage but he didn't have the buff either. I think its safe to say he isn't a bad mage so...wol bug? (Monk was also missing his own buff).

    Hope ya get to the bottom of it.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Revenantparadigm View Post
    Great work on this Rothulean. Reading through the link you provided it seems that a minimum you've got the simcraft crew to have a hard look at how unholy disease are being simmed.

    With regards to your logs showing diseases ticking harder than they shown on Simcraft I can confirm that I've had similar results. I raided on Monday with my current gear and was getting average ticks on both Frost Fever and Blood Plague that were around 2k higher than what simcraft predicted when I put my character through it.

    I was also getting crit results that would suggest simcraft is incorrect in using spell crit to calculate crit chances for diseases.

    So based on this simcraft could be wrong on two counts: a.) diseases ticking 15-20% softer than they should, and b.) crit chance being about 8% below what it should.

    If both a & b are correct then Unholy could be simming about 3- 4k below what it should (w T14 H gear). So not enough to put it above Frost, but enough to get it pretty damn close (leaving mechanics aside).
    Thanks. Its good to confirm that Unholy isnt as far behind Frost as ppl think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nangz View Post
    I find myself agreeing with all parses you've linked so far, just find it strange why it seems to behave normally for others in the parses. Also as a note, that Method DK doesn't show him getting the 5% crit buff, but they don't have a feral in the raid, they do have a mage but he didn't have the buff either. I think its safe to say he isn't a bad mage so...wol bug? (Monk was also missing his own buff).

    Hope ya get to the bottom of it.
    If you check the crit rates on his diseases and my diseases, youll notice his crit rate is quite a bit lower. Considering hes much better geared than I am, I think its safe to assume he didnt get the buff.

  18. #98
    Regardless of rather or not unholy is competitive, it comes with a lot of issues that some people just don't like.
    1)You have to monitor a pet, which some people just don't like. If he dies, your DPS drops way down so you have to focus on keeping him alive as well as having to focus on maximizing uptime on a buff for him to meet your full DPS potential. There's no "petless" unholy, and some people just don't like managing pets.
    2)It has a long ramp up time to really get going. That can be okay in boss situations, but if you use the same spec to say, run your dailies as well, it's not as efficient as frost OR blood-it doesn't have the burst and aoe frost has to kill lone mobs or small groups, and it doesn't have the near invincibility that lets blood take on 15+ mobs at once without concern.

  19. #99
    Dispite what most say i think that Uh has the smoother rotation and much forgiving.
    I have no probs with the procs, while as frost, was losing much dps hitting FS instead of Obl.
    Also, in my raid we are 3 dk's (dw-2h frosties, and me as UH). Most of the fights im a bit behind the dw. But every cleaving fight im in front.
    Every fight that has many execute phases im still ahead, AoE fights way in front.
    I dont know what sims do, but i find the UH much better specc right now. -at least for my skill-
    The only troubles i have with uh are when in heavy aoe fights, im left with orphan frost runes. Other than that i find the rotation much smoother, with a mediocre haste that i have. i almost have no spare time, cant imagine what it will be like with higher gear (currently at 485).
    Die by the sword

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by dgiras View Post
    The only troubles i have with uh are when in heavy aoe fights, im left with orphan frost runes
    Convert all of your frost and unholy runes to death and spam blood boil.

    Use pestilence on the least important target to refresh diseases on the others.

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