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  1. #1
    High Overlord Canaslan's Avatar
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    Question Prot Paladin DPS. Generally speaking, is it close to the other tank specs?

    Hello fellow tanks,

    As the title suggests I have this question that is bothering me since we started raiding with our guild. I play a Guardian Druid and the other tank is a Protection Paladin. I feel that his dps is way too low compared to mine and checking world of logs. We have about the same ilvl, but the thing that bothers me most is that his dps was 15k-20k ish when his ilvl was 460ish and it's just the same now his ilvl is 480ish.

    Now he's been a paladin tank for a long time, so I thought I'd make a thread here and ask for help as I have no clue about paladin tanks. I'm looking for help on how to improve his dps. I feel he's about 25k dps off of his target? What do you guys think?

    Here is a link to our logs:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/231007/

    His character's name is Demiray.

    This might no be a great example and I understand that vengeance plays a role in higher lvls of dps, but last night for instance he had 110k att power yet still he couldnt get higher than 30k on a trash pack (Trolls before Gara'jal).

    I really hope you can figure out if there is something he can do about it.

    Also if you could reduce the Acronyms or let me know where I can find them that'd be great!

    Thanks in advance!

  2. #2
    Mechagnome Lethora's Avatar
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    Hello, fellow Darkspearian (I used to play there in Classic-TBC, as rogue named Mortred).

    There are few things wrong with your paladin tank.
    He is not hardcapped on expertise.
    Glyph of Focused shield yields more dps than Alabaster shield.
    He has Battle healer glyph but used Seal of truth (switching to SoI would decrease his dps, but would boost his healing output by a lot).
    He is gemming for stamina. He should be gemming/reforging for either mastery or haste.
    He's using quite some pieces with dodge+parry which are awful for us. He also uses 2x stamina trinkets which are vast overkill.
    Lethora, 100 Protection Paladin, Shadowsong-EU
    Amberglow, 100 Assassination Rogue, Shadowsong-EU

  3. #3
    Like lethora says, plus he could be the biggest slacker on the face of the earth . For spiritbinder I can imagine him using more avoidance gear btw.

    Tbh i would be more worried about the dps of your dps then actually of the tank there, it generally seems lowish.

  4. #4
    Epic! Demetrion's Avatar
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    Tell him to get expertise cap. He should change his gems to expertise (he has some of them already) until cap then reforge rest of stats to haste.

    He should change that brewfest trinket with one from Darkmaster Gandling which gives tons of expertise and has strength on use.

  5. #5
    After digging through the WOL that you provided, I saw that he is not using Holy Wrath on cooldown. Since the latest patch it has become one of our harder hitting abilities. So using that spell should bump his dps up by alot.

  6. #6
    I'm aware that Gara'jal doesn't continue recording for people who jump into the other realm, but a protection paladin doing 16k dps is damn near auto-attacking.

    It looks like your warlock and shadowpriest are going down into the spirit realm on every single totem, that's a large waste of dps.

    You should be rotating people for who goes down, that way you can maximise the benefit of the spirit-realm's dps buff.

    With my protection paladin, I go for the hit cap (7.5%) then expertise cap (15%) and after that I will go for haste.

    Stat prio is as follows; Hit > Exp > Haste > Mastery >>>>>>> Parry > Dodge > Crit

    Enchant hit rating on boots, he already has Pursuit of Justice (Pandara's Step doesn't stack with it).
    Drop the bubblier brightbrew charm and grab the trinket from last boss in Scholomance (I think the above poster mentioned that).
    The 'on use' of this trinket awards around 4k strength, equating to roughly 4~5% parry
    Enchant the cape with hit rating.
    Drop the stamina gems, in blue sockets you'll be wanting hit rating (or hit&expertise gems) in red sockets you'll want expertise gems and in yellow sockets, depending on your hit/exp you'll want 320haste gems.
    Reforge away from dodge, not parry, into expertise/hit/haste.

    There are arguments for either Haste or Mastery, Mastery will ensure he has a larger damage reduction than with a Haste build, but Haste allows more uptime on Shield of the Righteous, meaning the net effect is the same, however I favor the Haste build seeing as it is far less spikey and the added bonus of you doing more dps as well.

    During bloodlust the tank takes virtually no damage as you'll have near-100% uptime on Shield of the Righteous buff and your battlehealer glyph coupled with seal of insight will make up most of the healing on yourself.

    Lastly he should spec out of Holy Avenger and spec into Divinity for the "RNG" procs for free holy power, this is absolutely a must for a fight like Gara'jal seeing as if you use Shield of the Righteous and it procs, you'll be able to extend the duration of the Shield of the Righteous buff, most of the times long enough to generate another 3 holy power, so that you'll have even closer to 100% uptime on it.

    This results in more dps and less damage taken.
    Holy Avenger is only good for a short period of time every 2 minutes and Gara'jal is not a boss with any sort of short burst phases.
    Last edited by qu1rex; 2012-11-15 at 12:24 PM.
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  7. #7
    High Overlord Canaslan's Avatar
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    @ lethora
    Thanks for the info! that's quite a lot! I'll let him know about the tips you've posted.

    @ xxlos
    Your first post in a thread I've created! I feel priveleged :P thank you as well
    The dps did get better now, we were still experimenting and have no melee haste buff nor heroism in back then. We're still trying to form a solid group. And some were needed to go offspec.

    @Demetrion

    Ill let him know about the trinket.



    What do you guys think about the abilities that he uses in general ? like aoe/single target rotation are on spot or a bit off?

    Cheers

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Canaslan View Post
    What do you guys think about the abilities that he uses in general ? like aoe/single target rotation are on spot or a bit off?

    Cheers
    I haven't looked at what he is using, however it is incredibly easy to get things right, as far as protection paladin 'rotation' goes.

    Use judgement on every single cooldown, use crusader strike on cooldown.
    Prioritise these two moves over everything else.
    Keep sacred Shield up.
    If Judgement and Crusader Strike are on cooldown, use Avenger's Shield.
    If Avenger's Shield, Crusader Strike and Judgement are on cooldown, use Holy Wrath.
    If all of the above are on cooldown, use Consecration.

    When Avenger's Shield procs, use that and prioritise it over Judgement/Crusader strike.

    Use Shield of the Righteous whenever it is available. It is not on the Global Cooldown, so when he uses it, he can also use a Crusader strike (just an example) at the same time.
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  9. #9
    Pandaren Monk Spacebubble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qu1rex View Post
    I'm aware that Gara'jal doesn't continue recording for people who jump into the other realm, but a protection paladin doing 16k dps is damn near auto-attacking.

    It looks like your warlock and shadowpriest are going down into the spirit realm on every single totem, that's a large waste of dps.

    You should be rotating people for who goes down, that way you can maximise the benefit of the spirit-realm's dps buff.

    With my protection paladin, I go for the hit cap (7.5%) then expertise cap (15%) and after that I will go for haste.

    Stat prio is as follows; Hit > Exp > Haste > Mastery >>>>>>> Parry > Dodge > Crit

    Enchant hit rating on boots, he already has Pursuit of Justice (Pandara's Step doesn't stack with it).
    Drop the bubblier brightbrew charm and grab the trinket from last boss in Scholomance (I think the above poster mentioned that).
    The 'on use' of this trinket awards around 4k strength, equating to roughly 4~5% parry
    Enchant the cape with hit rating.
    Drop the stamina gems, in blue sockets you'll be wanting hit rating (or hit&expertise gems) in red sockets you'll want expertise gems and in yellow sockets, depending on your hit/exp you'll want 320haste gems.
    Reforge away from dodge, not parry, into expertise/hit/haste.

    There are arguments for either Haste or Mastery, Mastery will ensure he has a larger damage reduction than with a Haste build, but Haste allows more uptime on Shield of the Righteous, meaning the net effect is the same, however I favor the Haste build seeing as it is far less spikey and the added bonus of you doing more dps as well.

    During bloodlust the tank takes virtually no damage as you'll have near-100% uptime on Shield of the Righteous buff and your battlehealer glyph coupled with seal of insight will make up most of the healing on yourself.

    Lastly he should spec out of Holy Avenger and spec into Divinity for the "RNG" procs for free holy power, this is absolutely a must for a fight like Gara'jal seeing as if you use Shield of the Righteous and it procs, you'll be able to extend the duration of the Shield of the Righteous buff, most of the times long enough to generate another 3 holy power, so that you'll have even closer to 100% uptime on it.

    This results in more dps and less damage taken.
    Holy Avenger is only good for a short period of time every 2 minutes and Gara'jal is not a boss with any sort of short burst phases.
    I beg to differ about holy avenger on gara'jal, that talent is amazing, due to the simple fact it'll be up every time you're tanking. not only giving you more dmg/heals but it's an extra CD which you can't have too many of on gara'jal. fishing for DP procs on the other hand is a really bad idea, chances are you'll get most of them when it doesn't matter.

    Holy Avenger might only be up for a 'short while' but you can easily stack shield of the righteous 10-15seconds past having HA up during it's duration, and that is quite a lot considering you'll be tanking for a minute each cycle, HA makes sure you have SotR up constantly for atleast half of that.

    Edit: went to raidbots.com and used the comparebot to compare a log I have from myself in about 483 gear on Feng normal to a feng kill by your paladin: here's the link http://raidbots.com/comparebot/50a4e...1000d47#damage

    as you can see I'm doing twice his damage, granted about 3 million is from using the reversal spell, but still, I'm doing 6 million more damage than him in almost 2 minutes less. and most of the reason for that can be seen in the 2nd tab "Hits/Minute" it pretty much looks like he's just standing there doing nothing a 3rd of the time.
    I did take a bit more damage than him as I was standing in a lot of stuff that night that I shouldn't have. (well barely more damage than him, if you compare the time spend in combat and dmg taken). Furthermore I was doing a little more healing than him, despite spending almost 2 minutes less in combat than him. again mostly due to his lack of ability usage.
    Last edited by Spacebubble; 2012-11-15 at 12:53 PM.

  10. #10
    During bloodlust the tank takes virtually no damage as you'll have near-100% uptime on Shield of the Righteous buff and your battlehealer glyph coupled with seal of insight will make up most of the healing on yourself.
    With zero haste rating you have about 50% uptime of ShoR during bloodlust, you need about 240% haste to get 100% ShoR uptime.

    Lastly he should spec out of Holy Avenger and spec into Divinity for the "RNG" procs for free holy power, this is absolutely a must for a fight like Gara'jal seeing as if you use Shield of the Righteous and it procs, you'll be able to extend the duration of the Shield of the Righteous buff, most of the times long enough to generate another 3 holy power, so that you'll have even closer to 100% uptime on it.
    Holy Avenger is 25 seconds (longer if bloodlust is active) of ~50% physical damage reduction, on demand. It is also 18 seconds of +30% damage on CS and J.

    This results in more dps and less damage taken.
    Holy Avenger is only good for a short period of time every 2 minutes and Gara'jal is not a boss with any sort of short burst phases.
    On Garajal you are only tanking for 60 seconds at a time anyway, so every time you are tanking can count as a "burst phase". Remember, if you reduce your damage taken, you reduce the damage taken by the connected players too.
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  11. #11
    Mechagnome Lethora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    It is also 18 seconds of +30% damage on CS and J.
    It also affects Grand Crusader (extra AS that generates 1 HP) procs.
    Lethora, 100 Protection Paladin, Shadowsong-EU
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  12. #12
    Pandaren Monk GenaiTN's Avatar
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    Oh Gad. I've realised whenever there is a Protection Paladin thread there is always an outcry of;
    "HASTE > MASTERY."
    "NO, MASTERY > HASTE."

    OT - Get your Paladin to sort out his gems, gear, priorities ability wise... Tell him to look around on the Protection Paladin guide written by MerinPally.
    Here's a link ---> http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Paladin-Guide

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Lethora View Post
    It also affects Grand Crusader (extra AS that generates 1 HP) procs.
    Are you sure? I thought so too, but I just did some AS on a target dummy both with and without HA, the grand crusader AS didn't increase by 30% with HA active.

    non HA, non GC AS was between 34600 and 35700
    HA, GC AS was 34224
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  14. #14
    High Overlord Canaslan's Avatar
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    Wow, thanks for the responses guys! I appreciate it very much and they're explained clear and well.

    I think, after reading this post, he will come out better.



    Is this something he can maintain throughout the whole raid and the new ones, or does he require some different built or abilities for magic heavy bosses, and stone guard with the Rend ability. I've told him to spam his "heal" ability on such fights as it's generally what I do using Frenzied Regen.

    Is this the same viable for him? Keep specced, gemmed, enchanted like you guys stated and use just more heal abilities on dmg that's not mitigable throug armor?

  15. #15
    Another +1 for Holy Avenger over Divine Purpose. Not just for Garajal, but for everything. Random procs will almost never be more useful or rewarding than on-demand cooldowns when used intelligently. In small sample sizes, you may see ridiculous uptimes/procs once in a blue moon, much like warrior TfB stacks, but in the law of averages, 25% is 25%. Consequently, the fact that you can pair HA with a trinket, like the shado-pan mastery on use trinket, means that you can stack a RIDICULOUS amount of mastery in that period of 100% ShotR uptime. It's practically a GoAK on a 2min CD. AND your priority spells hit 30% harder.

    No-brainer if I ever saw one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    Are you sure? I thought so too, but I just did some AS on a target dummy both with and without HA, the grand crusader AS didn't increase by 30% with HA active.

    non HA, non GC AS was between 34600 and 35700
    HA, GC AS was 34224
    I am interested in this as well, and try to track it in raid but always forget to do it on dummies. Is this your only sample size? I'm sure you're aware it's small, so just trying to see if we can get some folks to chip in and contribute values as well and determine if it does or does not affect GC AS procs. Not that it would really change your rotation/priority much, but just so we know.

  16. #16
    It is a small sample, but (and this is a big but) if !AS is buffed by HA, then even that one, single cast would have been higher (by around 10k damage) than the non-HA casts. It isn't conclusive, but it is strongly indicative of the behaviour I observed being the normal behaviour. Whether this is intended or not is something we would need to ask a blue.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Canaslan View Post
    I've told him to spam his "heal" ability on such fights as it's generally what I do using Frenzied Regen.
    If you are refering to Word of Glory then you should definently not spam it. It will heal for about ~30k but you will lose a 3sec 50% dmg reduction buff which will provide a better result.
    Using Shield of the Righteous (that gives the dmg reduction buff) also makes your next WoG stronger by a large margin. I personally never use WoG over Sotr unless I either have 4-5 stacks of the healing buff or to top someone off to save him from death on heavy aoe bosses.

    Also like everybody else I say Holy Avenger is better.
    Mainly because it acts as a burst threat/damage CD aswell as one of our strongest defensive CDs what with 100% uptime on Shotr during the duration and all.

  18. #18
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canaslan View Post
    I've told him to spam his "heal" ability on such fights as it's generally what I do using Frenzied Regen.
    It doesn't quite work that way. With Sacred Shield and Seal of Insight, plus incoming heals from the healers, Prot paladins have a lot of sustained healing on themselves. Using ShotR keeps your overall average damage intake low (i.e. it's the 'active' mitigation). Word of Glory is for more emergency situations where you get spiked. With a full stack of the Bastion of Glory buff, it's not uncommon to see 100k or higher heals (depending on your level of vengeance).

    Quote Originally Posted by Shippai View Post
    Using Shield of the Righteous (that gives the dmg reduction buff) also makes your next WoG stronger by a large margin. I personally never use WoG over Sotr unless I either have 4-5 stacks of the healing buff or to top someone off to save him from death on heavy aoe bosses.
    I'm pretty sure that WoGs cast on allies don't consume (and are not affected by) Bastion of Glory, right?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    I'm pretty sure that WoGs cast on allies don't consume (and are not affected by) Bastion of Glory, right?
    It does not.
    I don't use it to heal others very often, but when I do it's in one of those scenarios when every heal counts and I'm not taking that much damage anyway.
    Say Elegon just before the tankswich or Blade Lord Ta'yak when I'm waiting on debuff to fall off. Both of them can burst like crazy so topping one of with 2 healers and raid damage might be difficult.
    I also use Sacred Shield on other people (again, the tank mostly) whenever I know I won't be taking any damage.

  20. #20
    Pandaren Monk rawhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shippai View Post
    It does not.
    I don't use it to heal others very often, but when I do it's in one of those scenarios when every heal counts and I'm not taking that much damage anyway.
    Say Elegon just before the tankswich or Blade Lord Ta'yak when I'm waiting on debuff to fall off. Both of them can burst like crazy so topping one of with 2 healers and raid damage might be difficult.
    I also use Sacred Shield on other people (again, the tank mostly) whenever I know I won't be taking any damage.
    Idd - WoGing others wont drop your bastion stacks....but tbh you should rarely, if ever, WoGing anyone else (never mind yourself - you should never be WoGing yourself much either.....).

    On another note dont forget to SS and HoSac the other tank when they take over from your after a tank switch ( and HoSal yourself :P ), your vengence will be high for a while after you drop aggro and the extra absorb is muchly nice. Pally tanks really are rather uber in the helping raid department.

    EDIT: oh and yes HA is rawesomesauce really - DP is a bit too random to be that helpful a tank cd.
    Last edited by rawhammer; 2012-11-15 at 04:43 PM.
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