Thread: Monk Burst

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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by DScythe View Post
    In my opinion they buffed us quite a bit with not having to stack tigerpalm at the pull with prepot, this is a pretty significant change, we don't have a masive burst ability but using tigersbrew effectively can get you top of the meters and some ranked parses in world of logs.
    Yeah our over-time DPS is just fine, slightly better than average now.

    The problem is that WW doesn't bring anything other than steady DPS. We have no burst, no cleave, no utility, and no raid-wide DPS increase like Shattering Throw, Skull Banner, or Stormlash Totem. We have no raid damage reduction, no passive raid healing, no passive self-healing, no passive damage reduction. Any marginal kind of utility comes at a cost to DPS (Chi Wave, the odd time that Zen Meditation actually does something, Chi Torpedo is impossible to take as DPS) which simply makes it not worth it to use. Windwalker is the prime example of a spec that does nothing but do damage.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Yeah our over-time DPS is just fine, slightly better than average now.

    The problem is that WW doesn't bring anything other than steady DPS. We have no burst, no cleave, no utility, and no raid-wide DPS increase like Shattering Throw, Skull Banner, or Stormlash Totem. We have no raid damage reduction, no passive raid healing, no passive self-healing, no passive damage reduction. Any marginal kind of utility comes at a cost to DPS (Chi Wave, the odd time that Zen Meditation actually does something, Chi Torpedo is impossible to take as DPS) which simply makes it not worth it to use. Windwalker is the prime example of a spec that does nothing but do damage.
    It's mostly true besides touch of karma, it's both a defensive and offensive cooldown if used correctly. I think we're one of the best sustainable and self sufficient classes there is. I guess the best example I can think of now is sha of fear, when dealing with the platform phase. I use touch of karma during death blossom, meaning I can stay out and dps the add, soak most of the damage and apply a damaging dot to him, while every other dps is tucked behind the pillars.

    Other various points of interest are expel harm while running between mobs or having distance, zen meditation at wind lord during the 2nd phase, amazing mobility, 2 more defensive cds which cost nothing (fort brew and either dampen harm/diffuse magic), even chi wave can be used to help out, yes at the expense of damage but all this adds up to less pressure on healers during "oh shit" moments. Hell even transcendence during elegon, oh and actually touch of death there too if something goes amiss with an allies spark.

    Hey! At least we aren't rogues!

  3. #23
    Touch of Karma is not a special snowflake for the ability to do damage. It's a roundabout defensive cooldown whose only purpose is to reduce healing needed and get increased DPS time from being able to stand in things you normally couldn't. It's really no different than Cloak of Shadows, Divine Shield, Anti-Magic Shell, and a few other abilities. Unfortunately things that can be cheesed via bubble or Iceblock usually override the damage limit of ToK and it doesn't have the "lolnodebuffs" aspect of AMS or CloS. WW's DPS is slightly better than average assuming the extra 2-3% from proper ToK use, the fact that it reflects the damage really doesn't make WW special in any way.

    Everyone has defensive cooldowns, there's nothing special about Fortifying Brew or Dampen Harm/Diffuse Magic that other classes don't have some kind of variant of. Every class has some kind of self-healing they can use by merely pressing the right button, the catch is that a lot of them don't cost DPS like Expel Harm (unless you're truly not in Jab range, which almost never happens) or are simply passive bonuses like Evocate glyph or Grimoire of Sacrifice. You don't see anyone praising how useful Shadow-Priest shields are because they're rarely worth casting instead of a DPS button. Transendence is nice for mobility and Touch of Death is useful in very select circumstances, but I'd rather trade them for just more damage and an actual burst cooldown.

    Windwalker isn't missing anything that every other spec has, but it IS missing anything whatsoever that makes you go "hm, I should bring this WW instead of X other DPS spec for Y specific situation." Rogues have their Blade Flurry, Paladins LoH and all of the Hand spells and Devotion Aura, Warriors bring Skull Banner, Shamans bring Stormlash and raid healing CDs, Hunters and Mages can change specs to specialize in certain kinds of DPS and can both use immunity spells to cheese certain mechanics, Death Knights bring Gorefiend's Grasp, Warlocks bring gateways and ridiculous multidotting, Priests bring various raid cooldowns depending on spec, Druids have Heart of the Wild and Tranq and Stampeding Roar. What do Windwalkers bring that makes them special?
    Last edited by Totaltotemic; 2012-12-11 at 11:59 AM.

  4. #24
    yes i am looking forward to 5.2 to see what buffs we can get i think since tank and healers have a totem should dps maybe get 1 i have not thought about the benefits but it be pretty cool for some dps boost

  5. #25
    very well said totaltotemic. that speach should be a sticky on Blizz forums.

  6. #26
    Well one thing I always do and this may separate me from other monks (especially the other WW in the guild) is always using whatever Tigerseye Brew stacks before pull. During the countdown I roll at 5 (just for the reduced threat from glyph) than at 3 hit Tigerseye Brew and at 2 Prepot. I'm only sitting at 491 atm with the 2h from normal Spirit Kings but a few times on H Blade Lord last night I peaked around 180k since we lust at the beginning.

    Another thing is if you know you're going to wipe on a boss start building your stacks for the next pull. After you get rezzed or during the run back start using Expel harm and Chi Wave/Zen Sphere depending on the fight. This will help you try to cap before the fight.

    And last use Expel harm to try and cap your chi before pull. You only lose 1 chi during the CD of Expel harm but it can quickly start you off at full or close to full in around a minute.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Windwalker isn't missing anything that every other spec has, but it IS missing anything whatsoever that makes you go "hm, I should bring this WW instead of X other DPS spec for Y specific situation." Rogues have their Blade Flurry, Paladins LoH and all of the Hand spells and Devotion Aura, Warriors bring Skull Banner, Shamans bring Stormlash and raid healing CDs, Hunters and Mages can change specs to specialize in certain kinds of DPS and can both use immunity spells to cheese certain mechanics, Death Knights bring Gorefiend's Grasp, Warlocks bring gateways and ridiculous multidotting, Priests bring various raid cooldowns depending on spec, Druids have Heart of the Wild and Tranq and Stampeding Roar. What do Windwalkers bring that makes them special?
    I had to quote this because it's something I'm dealing with. Despite out-DPSing some of our melee on most single and multi-target fights (Empress, Amber-Shaper, Wind Lord) I know that my raid spot would be handed over to a warrior in a heartbeat if one showed up that had half a brain and could play their class well. Our raid would really just love to have that skullbanner, and that's just the way it is. Sure my damage is quite good, but I just don't bring the utility the other class does.

  8. #28
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
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    OMG you guys aren't you forgetting Zen Meditation?

  9. #29
    Moderator Callimonk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirewolfX View Post
    OMG you guys aren't you forgetting Zen Meditation?
    We already have a Brewmaster and a Mistweaver. Where would a Windwalker fit with that, especially when there's always something to be hitting?

  10. #30
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
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    LOL, I was being sarcastic. It's pretty terrible, except for timing like 1 second of it to dodge some raid-wide AoE.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-11 at 01:41 PM ----------

    To be fair, though, things like Skull Banner, Stormlash Totem and Stampeding Roar are also available to all specs of their respective classes.

  11. #31
    Moderator Callimonk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirewolfX View Post
    LOL, I was being sarcastic. It's pretty terrible, except for timing like 1 second of it to dodge some raid-wide AoE.
    Ah, gotcha. Sometimes sarcasm is hard to read over text.

    Oh, but we do bring front-loaded damage!

    ....it's just too bad that in most environments, we're target-switching or running out.

  12. #32
    Brewmaster Jess Day's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roggles View Post
    I think they fixed that too. The actual tiger eye buff goes poof when fight starts.
    They haven't fixed it.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by DirewolfX View Post
    To be fair, though, things like Skull Banner, Stormlash Totem and Stampeding Roar are also available to all specs of their respective classes.
    That's exactly the problem actually, Windwalker isn't just a lacking spec for DPS, it's a lacking spec for any role whatsoever. Brewmasters have great utility through Avert Harm and omgsomanyshields, Mistweavers have Revival and give extra raid DPS whenever they fistweave (which amounts to a lot more than a Stormlash Totem ever could) and now Life Cocoon if you want to count that as "utility." Unfortunately all of those are spec-specific, which leaves Windwalker with absolutely nothing except Zen Meditation which is like saying that you should bring an Ele Shaman because they have Grounding Totem >.>

    Windwalker needs a spec-specific special something, whether that means fixing Zen Meditation so that it actually does something or stealing one of the Brewmaster or Mistweaver mechanics to be useful. If it was something new, it doesn't even have to be utility, it could just be specializing in burst damage or cleaving or higher than normal sustained DPS. It just needs something to define the spec.

  14. #34
    I still think the "Roar of the White Tiger" (+20% crit chance for 15 seconds) cooldown was a great idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jess Day View Post
    They haven't fixed it.
    Happens to me on a regular basis.
    Currently trying to experiences all classes at 100. Count so far: 3.

  15. #35
    at 487 ilvl using 489 gara'kal, fist of the spiritbinder on MH and a ilvl 463 OH my burst is about 130-140k dps. My sustained dps is just above 90k. Are you reforging properly? I found that my energy is constantly capping at around 4000 haste rating, rest i put into crit. Then i just make sure i do RSK on cd, FoF when opertunity and energy permits(below 50 and no EB within 10 sec) and BK as a filler. Ofcourse keeping TS up is important.

    My starter is:
    flying serpent kick-jab-jab-TS-RSK-Xuen-jab-jab-BK-BK-jab-jab-RSK-FoF.

    Experimented with alot of different openers, so far this is the best ive found.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by alysmera View Post
    I had to quote this because it's something I'm dealing with. Despite out-DPSing some of our melee on most single and multi-target fights (Empress, Amber-Shaper, Wind Lord) I know that my raid spot would be handed over to a warrior in a heartbeat if one showed up that had half a brain and could play their class well. Our raid would really just love to have that skullbanner, and that's just the way it is. Sure my damage is quite good, but I just don't bring the utility the other class does.
    I have thought about that. But at the same time, our personal cooldowns blow away those of a DPS warrior. Touch of Karma, Dampen Harm/Spell Diffusion, Fortifying Brew, Zen Meditation. Warriors have raid CDs but almost nonexistant personal CDs. Shield Wall is like Zen Meditation in that it gimps their damage (pretty sure they recently changed it to require keeping your shield out), but it only gives them a 40% reduction instead of 90%. Die by the Sword doesn't help 90% of the time.

    There really aren't that many raid CDs brought by DPS specs. Skull Banner from Warriors, Stormlash from Shamans, and Stampeding Roar from Druids. Paladins give Devotion Aura. Priests can Hymn. None of the pure DPS specs bring anything. I don't think Death Knights bring anything.

    I don't have a problem with not having raid utility since half of the DPS specs don't as long as we have strong personals. However, if we're going to be treated like a pure DPS with no hybrid raid utility, we should probably have a real cleave. Some kind of noticeable DPS increase against 2-3 targets would be nice.

  17. #37
    The healers in my guild love me. On most fights I take less damage than everyone else through use of Touch of Karma, Diffuse Magic, and Zen Meditation. Really good mobility through Transcendence/Roll/Serpent Kick keeps me at pretty much 100% uptime even on fights where a lot of moving and target switching is needed, which is putting me above the other melee in my group.

    I will agree that a raid cooldown like Skull Banner would be nice, but I don't think we're in that bad of a spot. Either way, I don't feel that my raid spot is in jeopardy.

  18. #38
    If I'm correct, your tea/brew stacks restart when you pull a boss in raid normal. So building up stacks don't matter, only in arena/bgs

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Romeo300 View Post
    And last use Expel harm to try and cap your chi before pull. You only lose 1 chi during the CD of Expel harm but it can quickly start you off at full or close to full in around a minute.
    If you run with an unglyphed SFB, you can spam it out of combat. It does not use up Chi and it stops the chi decay.

  20. #40
    Brewmaster Jess Day's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    I still think the "Roar of the White Tiger" (+20% crit chance for 15 seconds) cooldown was a great idea.



    Happens to me on a regular basis.
    Has not happened to me once.

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