1. #1
    High Overlord Aqacia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    130

    [Arcane] Clarifications needed

    I've started raiding as arcane. I've read the guides and several threads here on the forum. There are however a few things that I still dont quite understand.

    First of all. Scorch weaving vs Arcane barrage. From what I've understood the best single target arcane rotation is:
    When you're at 6 stacks of arcane charges, you use missiles whenever you get a proc. When you dont have a missile proc, you continue casting blast untill you get a proc. If you drop below 80% mana you then start casting scorch untill you get around ~90% mana. Use missiles whenever possible but NEVER cast barrage.

    Is this correct? Is it calculated to be a DPS increase to add in some scorches when you get below 80% mana, isntead of casting barrage and start over stacking charges again? Also, what is the magic % to stay above? Is 80% correct?


    Secondly, I have a question reguarding haste for arcane. From what I've understood its best to stack mastery over haste. However, you need to hit a soft cap where haste provides an extra proc of Nether tempest. What is this soft cap? From what I understood of from Shangalars guide, 6556 is the amount of haste you need. After this, mastery is better. What % of haste is this? Since I've heard using Frost armor over Mage armor is an option, if it gets you over the soft cap. I'm not sure what amount of haste Frost armor gives, since it only shows %.
    Also, did you take Boomkin haste aura in consideration when you came up with 6556?


    Thanks a lot for any helpful answer.

  2. #2
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    In a tree
    Posts
    929
    Arcane is currently quite flexible with what you can do to pull decent numbers.

    Scorch Weaving vs Arcane Barrage

    Currently, Scorch Weaving is ahead as you don't drop stacks and 'waste' DPS by building them back up again; in reality even if your Barrage hits like a truck (which it does), it doesn't make up for the time taken to build back to 6 stacks. Therefore, Scorch Weaving is currently superior.

    The way Scorch Weaving is done (at the moment, anyway) is by alternating casts of Arcane Blast and Scorch while hovering around a certain Mana % (will come back to this later), replacing Scorch with any AM procs you get in the process. This rotation also varies on your haste levels; the higher your haste the easier it is to make a 'mistake' and Blast once too many times without it being detrimental to your DPS. At high levels of Haste you can Blast twice between each Scorch/Missiles as the regen is decent enough for the whole process to be mana-neutral.

    Regardless of what method you're using, it is always a dps increase to use Barrage if you cannot refresh stacks and would otherwise drop the stacks, for example a period of heavy movement where you can't even find the time to re-cast Blast or Missiles and are just spamming Scorch to maintain DPS - Barraging before stacks drop off is a DPS increase.


    Mana %s

    Typically, most people are currently going for the full-Mastery build once they have gained the SECOND extra tick of Nether Tempest (3056 Haste non-goblin, I believe). With this build; it's more optimal to hover around 85% mana, slightly higher if possible as your Mastery is a large amount of your DPS and therefore the more mana you're able to keep; the better.
    However, some people are currently using an all-out-haste build (like me, for example). There is little that proves that this is either ahead or behind Mastery build, it's currently just a preference. As we obtain more gear it's likely that Mastery pulls ahead, but for now they are roughly even. In this build you have much more mana regen, and as a result are able to get more Blasts in per Scorches than if you were going Mastery build, and this is where the benefit of this build is. If you decide to go this route, typically you can hover around 80% mana without losing DPS, although I wouldn't recommend going below this % if you can and I personally still try and hover around 85%, depending on what cooldowns are up.


    Frost Armor vs Mage Armor

    This *usually* depends on preference more than anything. Typically I believe that if you're going full-mastery build you should use Mage Armor, and vice versa for Haste build and Frost Armor, but I know that people are using Frost Armor to hit Haste caps so they are able to reforge more to Mastery and the same the other way; so it really just comes down to personal preference.
    I *believe* the haste caps are based on Haste %s, so you can determine whether or not that includes the 5% haste buff or not. You can read more about haste caps by clicking here.

    Hope this helps!
    Last edited by Cycobi; 2012-12-10 at 12:54 PM.

  3. #3
    I am new to arcane myself, but I'll try to answer your questions with things I learned from these forums etc. Feel free to correct me if you're sure I'm wrong.

    Scorch weaving: There's no conclusive evidence which of the two is best, since the spec is only being played since very recently. However, the general consensus is that scorch weaving is the best right now. What most players seem to do is AB > Filler > AB > Filler and so on, unless mana levels dictate otherwise. In practise you might need to use both missiles and scorch to get back to proper mana, or you might be able to AB twice in a row every so often. Rune replacement, DoT refresh, Missiles, and Scorch are all fillers. Haste build gives you a bit more leeway, since regen is better (or so I've read on these forums).

    Being at high mana is a bit less important than with a full mastery build (because you rely on the mastery bonus a lot more then, obviously) but you should still aim to stay at high mana levels. If you follow what most mages seem to be doing (AB Filler AB etc.) and occasionally compensate for your mana levels, you shouldn't really be dropping below 85-90%

    I'm not sure about the mastery vs haste, so I'll leave that to other people.
    Frost armor vs mage armor: frost armor is percentage-based; it's multiplicative with the rest of your haste. What this means is that the more haste you have, the more the multiplier works. (Higher haste levels = more from frost armor), or that's what I've read. In itself (disregarding haste from other sources) frost armor is 2975.
    For more info on how haste works: www.wowpedia.org/Haste

    And for extra dot ticks etc., refer to this spreadsheed which lists all the dots:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...ZmFYa0E#gid=39

    Some say to cap haste at 3056 (14th tick), others say 6414. You can mix and match haste levels with and without certain buffs/armors with the spreadsheet.

    Hope I didn't get too much wrong, and hope this was of some help.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Typically, most people are currently going for the full-Mastery build once they have gained the FIRST extra tick of Nether Tempest (~3400 Haste, I believe).
    You don't need Haste at all to get one extra tick from Nether Tempest. Full raid buffs will give you that.

    For two extra ticks a non-goblin mage needs 3056 Haste points (assuming full raid buffs).

  5. #5
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    In a tree
    Posts
    929
    Quote Originally Posted by Siniwelho View Post
    You don't need Haste at all to get one extra tick from Nether Tempest. Full raid buffs will give you that.

    For two extra ticks a non-goblin mage needs 3056 Haste points (assuming full raid buffs).
    Cheers, fixed.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Arcane is currently quite flexible with what you can do to pull decent numbers.

    Scorch Weaving vs Arcane Barrage

    Currently, Scorch Weaving is ahead as you don't drop stacks and 'waste' DPS by building them back up again; in reality even if your Barrage hits like a truck (which it does), it doesn't make up for the time taken to build back to 6 stacks. Therefore, Scorch Weaving is currently superior.

    The way Scorch Weaving is done (at the moment, anyway) is by alternating casts of Arcane Blast and Scorch while hovering around a certain Mana % (will come back to this later), replacing Scorch with any AM procs you get in the process. This rotation also varies on your haste levels; the higher your haste the easier it is to make a 'mistake' and Blast once too many times without it being detrimental to your DPS. At high levels of Haste you can Blast twice between each Scorch/Missiles as the regen is decent enough for the whole process to be mana-neutral.

    Regardless of what method you're using, it is always a dps increase to use Barrage if you cannot refresh stacks and would otherwise drop the stacks, for example a period of heavy movement where you can't even find the time to re-cast Blast or Missiles and are just spamming Scorch to maintain DPS - Barraging before stacks drop off is a DPS increase.
    What about on fights with Multiple targets? Like Mel Jarak, do you use Abarr after 6 stacks or is it still higher DPS to just scorch weave through it?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawogi View Post
    What about on fights with Multiple targets? Like Mel Jarak, do you use Abarr after 6 stacks or is it still higher DPS to just scorch weave through it?
    Before the first adds are down, its prolly worth to use Arcane Barrage, but after that it depends on if you go for epeen or actual progress, if ranks and epeen sure use barrage, but for actual progress single target the adds that need to go down and tunnel the boss when the buff is on him.

  8. #8
    High Overlord Aqacia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    130
    Im sorry if I missed some major mechanic in the game, but how exactly is more haste = more mana regen? To me, casting more spells in a shorter period of time = more mana spent. The very reason I went for mastery over haste is beacuse I thought it would be easier to maintain a high mana percentage.

    Also, reguarding the haste. I'm a goblin, and my current haste is at around 3983. From what you said, I guess this means I can use Mage Armor and not Frost armor since I'm already above the soft cap.

    Reguarding the mana %, I will try and stay at around 85+% then. But you mentioned that you try to stay at around 85%, depending on CDs availabe. What do you mean by this? Is it an option to burn a little below 85% if you have Arcane Power active, for example? I did not quite understand.

  9. #9
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    In a tree
    Posts
    929
    Quote Originally Posted by Aqacia View Post
    Im sorry if I missed some major mechanic in the game, but how exactly is more haste = more mana regen? To me, casting more spells in a shorter period of time = more mana spent. The very reason I went for mastery over haste is beacuse I thought it would be easier to maintain a high mana percentage.

    Also, reguarding the haste. I'm a goblin, and my current haste is at around 3983. From what you said, I guess this means I can use Mage Armor and not Frost armor since I'm already above the soft cap.

    Reguarding the mana %, I will try and stay at around 85+% then. But you mentioned that you try to stay at around 85%, depending on CDs availabe. What do you mean by this? Is it an option to burn a little below 85% if you have Arcane Power active, for example? I did not quite understand.
    Don't worry I was the same. We have a passive - Nether Atunement by which our Haste increases mana regen.

    Ultimately, yes, more Haste = More spells cast = More mana spent, but with RoP usage mana regen is already very good and with extra haste on top of that it's borderline ridiculous.

    Yes, if you're going Mastery build and you're already above the soft cap go Mage Armor.

    When I say what CDs are available, almost every CD has its uses as Arcane, with Mirrors being a slight exception.

    Mana Gem - If this is close to being off CD or is off CD you can burn to ~80% and go back to 100% or burn to ~75% (Haste build only, really) and jump back to 100% from the global.

    Arcane Power - Can allow to burn to 80% instead of 85-90% as Mastery, Haste you want to try and keep ~80% if possible.

    Alter Time - This snapshots your mana value and returns it to that point in 6 seconds; this should be used in conjunction with Arcane Power for maximum benefit, but I usually try and conserve a little more mana before I pop this so I'm sitting at ~90-95% mana so maximise the damage. Alter Time should be used with 6 stacks and 2 AM procs up, and you use both missiles, Blast once and then Barrage to drop stacks, then when AT pops you have 2 missiles and are back to high mana %. At this point I recommend using 1 proc and then Blasting so you benefit from the free mana of AM as part of your regen routine.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Arcane is currently quite flexible with what you can do to pull decent numbers.

    Scorch Weaving vs Arcane Barrage

    Currently, Scorch Weaving is ahead as you don't drop stacks and 'waste' DPS by building them back up again; in reality even if your Barrage hits like a truck (which it does), it doesn't make up for the time taken to build back to 6 stacks. Therefore, Scorch Weaving is currently superior.

    The way Scorch Weaving is done (at the moment, anyway) is by alternating casts of Arcane Blast and Scorch while hovering around a certain Mana % (will come back to this later), replacing Scorch with any AM procs you get in the process. This rotation also varies on your haste levels; the higher your haste the easier it is to make a 'mistake' and Blast once too many times without it being detrimental to your DPS. At high levels of Haste you can Blast twice between each Scorch/Missiles as the regen is decent enough for the whole process to be mana-neutral.

    Regardless of what method you're using, it is always a dps increase to use Barrage if you cannot refresh stacks and would otherwise drop the stacks, for example a period of heavy movement where you can't even find the time to re-cast Blast or Missiles and are just spamming Scorch to maintain DPS - Barraging before stacks drop off is a DPS increase.


    Mana %s

    Typically, most people are currently going for the full-Mastery build once they have gained the SECOND extra tick of Nether Tempest (3056 Haste non-goblin, I believe). With this build; it's more optimal to hover around 85% mana, slightly higher if possible as your Mastery is a large amount of your DPS and therefore the more mana you're able to keep; the better.
    However, some people are currently using an all-out-haste build (like me, for example). There is little that proves that this is either ahead or behind Mastery build, it's currently just a preference. As we obtain more gear it's likely that Mastery pulls ahead, but for now they are roughly even. In this build you have much more mana regen, and as a result are able to get more Blasts in per Scorches than if you were going Mastery build, and this is where the benefit of this build is. If you decide to go this route, typically you can hover around 80% mana without losing DPS, although I wouldn't recommend going below this % if you can and I personally still try and hover around 85%, depending on what cooldowns are up.


    Frost Armor vs Mage Armor

    This *usually* depends on preference more than anything. Typically I believe that if you're going full-mastery build you should use Mage Armor, and vice versa for Haste build and Frost Armor, but I know that people are using Frost Armor to hit Haste caps so they are able to reforge more to Mastery and the same the other way; so it really just comes down to personal preference.
    I *believe* the haste caps are based on Haste %s, so you can determine whether or not that includes the 5% haste buff or not. You can read more about haste caps by clicking here.

    Hope this helps!

    First of all, I'll just point out that Arcane Barrage does not hit for more than Arcane Missiles unless it crits and the Arcane Missiles majority doesn't. There is a common perception that Barrage is a stronger damaging spell, this is simply false. However, I will also point out that the Barrage is only a GCD compared to for example a 1.7s Arcane Missile cast, so damage per time it may be more effective if it crits and none of your missiles do.

    Secondly, Frost Armor is a clear DPS loss, you do not take 7% haste over 3000 Mastery if you are going for scorch weave play-style, actually, you don't take 7% haste over 3000 Mastery in any circumstances unless you are playing Frost. You can argue with me all you like, but I have tested this extensively with different gear types, in and out of raids since the 5.1 Arcane buff.
    Last edited by Nezek; 2012-12-12 at 01:33 PM.

  11. #11
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Rijeka, Croatia
    Posts
    1,975
    @Nezek I agree with your last statement - I would also never take Frost Armor over Mage Armor.

    Likewise, Barrage will always be a better choice than 6-Charge camping on anything that involves more than two targets. If there are even more targets, like on Mel'jarak, then your priority is to get as many 6-Charge Barrages out as possible, especially while you have procs and Power active. This is true even when only the last pack of adds is left alive (it's still 4 targets). However, once the mobs die, you go back to camping.

  12. #12
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    In a tree
    Posts
    929
    Quote Originally Posted by Nezek View Post
    First of all, I'll just point out that Arcane Barrage does not hit for more than Arcane Missiles unless it crits and the Arcane Missiles majority doesn't. There is a common perception that Barrage is a stronger damaging spell, this is simply false. However, I will also point out that the Barrage is only a GCD compared to for example a 1.7s Arcane Missile cast, so damage per time it may be more effective if it crits and none of your missiles do.

    Secondly, Frost Armor is a clear DPS loss, you do not take 7% haste over 3000 Mastery if you are going for scorch weave play-style, actually, you don't take 7% haste over 3000 Mastery in any circumstances unless you are playing Frost. You can argue with me all you like, but I have tested this extensively with different gear types, in and out of raids since the 5.1 Arcane buff.
    I never stated that Missiles did more or less damage than Barrage, I merely implied that Barrage hits hard; not a falsity.

    You are looking at it as % vs raw figure instead of raw figure vs raw figure, which pans out as ~2975 Haste vs 3000 Mastery; and considering how close the two stats are currently simming it comes down to preference or what build you're deciding to use. Also don't forget that Haste scales multiplicatively and therefore, the more Haste you have the greater the stat gain.
    Whilst Haste will eventually suffer from diminishing returns as we obtain more gear, with current gear levels as they are there is nothing wrong with going full-haste build as there is little/no proof that Mastery is outright better.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    Likewise, Barrage will always be a better choice than 6-Charge camping on anything that involves more than two targets. If there are even more targets, like on Mel'jarak, then your priority is to get as many 6-Charge Barrages out as possible, especially while you have procs and Power active. This is true even when only the last pack of adds is left alive (it's still 4 targets). However, once the mobs die, you go back to camping.

    This is 100% correct.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-12 at 01:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    I never stated that Missiles did more or less damage than Barrage, I merely implied that Barrage hits hard; not a falsity.

    You are looking at it as % vs raw figure instead of raw figure vs raw figure, which pans out as ~2975 Haste vs 3000 Mastery; and considering how close the two stats are currently simming it comes down to preference or what build you're deciding to use. Also don't forget that Haste scales multiplicatively and therefore, the more Haste you have the greater the stat gain.
    Whilst Haste will eventually suffer from diminishing returns as we obtain more gear, with current gear levels as they are there is nothing wrong with going full-haste build as there is little/no proof that Mastery is outright better.
    Proof is in the pudding.

    Scaling additive or multiplicative is irrelevant, haste becomes a less important statistic the more you have once reaching your soft caps for extra ticks etc (not saying its not needed) and going for 7% Haste over your 3000 Mastery is not the best choice. The stat weight values from Haste compared to Mastery with raid buffs are poorer in contrast. Mastery gives you plain and simply more damage per mana, and at 80% to 100% mana outweighs Hastes greater throughput, reduced GCD and mana regeneration.

    These are my tests which I have spent extensive hours conducting, this may not work for everyone, but in my opinion, the proof IS in MY pudding.
    Last edited by Nezek; 2012-12-12 at 01:57 PM.

  14. #14
    I just changed from fire to arcane to try it out, cause my dps as fire kept sucking since the nerfs. Been reading here on the forum. What i dont get is should i keep AC at 6 and scorch untill i get a AM? And when do i ever use AB?

  15. #15
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    In a tree
    Posts
    929
    Quote Originally Posted by Nezek View Post
    This is 100% correct.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-12 at 01:53 PM ----------



    Proof is in the pudding.

    Scaling additive or multiplicative is irrelevant, haste becomes a less important statistic the more you have once reaching your soft caps for extra ticks etc (not saying its not needed) and going for 7% Haste over your 3000 Mastery is not the best choice. The stat weight values from Haste compared to Mastery with raid buffs are poorer in contrast. Mastery gives you plain and simply more damage per mana, and at 80% to 100% mana outweighs Hastes greater throughput, reduced GCD and mana regeneration.

    These are my tests which I have spent extensive hours conducting, this may not work for everyone, but in my opinion, the proof IS in MY pudding.
    If you're willing to show results which support your theory that's fine (meaning Logs, btw), but my DPS has been fine and I'm going all-out-haste. I've tried going all-out-mastery, too, and for now the numbers I pull with Haste build are higher, but then again my itemization is sub-optimal and therefore I only get to 6.1K Haste rating (aiming for 6343). After I've reached the next tick using Frost Armor w/ Raid Haste I'll go Mastery.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •