1. #1

    dilemma : Assassination or Combat

    Claw of Shek`zeer dropped. In a dilemma state, Assassination or Combat. Have the legendary gem ready.

    I has been playing Assassination with one heroic (ilvl502 but upgrade to ilvl 510) Dagger of the seven stars, and ilvl 489 Dagger of the seven stars. I can play both spec well.

    Is thinking whether should I go combat, then I wont be fighting the same gears as my other rogue (Assassination). But the problem is I always see Combat topping the chart at the beginning, and when the boss is killed, Assassination dps more than Combat.

    As for now, there isn't any much any cleaving boss fight.

  2. #2
    Combat is superior on some fights, namely cleave fights like Garalon and Stone Guards, while Assassination has superior AoE and singletarget.

    Ultimately go whichever you enjoy playing more, preferably with weapons which allow you to switch to the other specc for fights which it is much better on.

    Going Combat so you don't compete with daggers with your other Rogue is reasonable, but remember that if you play with an Enh Shaman or a DPS/tank Monk you're just swapping from competing with your Rogue to competing with them.

  3. #3
    Actually my other rogue already have the Spiritsever dagger with legendary gem and a heroic stone guard dagger. Not sure whether he will rolling on another Spiritsever dagger if drop, cause you can;t equip it with another legendary gem < heroic stone guard dagger.

  4. #4
    When you say other rogue do you mean another raider who plays rogue. If so you can do what we do, have me as assass and the other as combat. It plays off your weaknesses, so it's good. Assassination throughput, combat burst etc...

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    When you say other rogue do you mean another raider who plays rogue. If so you can do what we do, have me as assass and the other as combat. It plays off your weaknesses, so it's good. Assassination throughput, combat burst etc...
    Yes, that was what we are thinking..

  6. #6
    Assassination stays decently ahead of Combat on single target until you get extremely geared. By extremely geared, I'm talking 504ish and up. At about that point and on, Combat starts to catch up. In full BiS, Combat has a slight edge. It's not unexpected since that's how it's usually been in previous expansions and will remain so for this one too. Assassination's problem is that it starts out good but the stat weights just aren't in its favor. Assassination's EP values are:

    Agility: 2.74
    MH dps: 2.4
    Mastery: 1.12
    Haste: 1.00
    Crit: .99

    Respectively, Combat's EP values are:

    MH dps: 4.93
    Agility: 2.74
    Haste: 1.62
    Mastery: 1.43
    Crit: 1.04

    The fact that Combat's EP values just crush Assassination's means that it's inevitable, that as in Cataclysm, Combat will probably completely eclipse Assassination for single target by next tier. For pete's sake, Combat gets 27% more from mastery than Assassination and Mastery isn't even Combat's best secondary stat. It's just embarrassing for Assassination when you look at the EP values for MH dps. Combat gets over 100% more. Again, none of this is completely unexpected however.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Refrakt View Post
    Yes, that was what we are thinking..
    Then go for it, like I said so many situations that make it worth it. Will of the emperor I tunnel on the boss to make sure the berserk is out of reach, the other one cleaves on adds where possible and has more suitable ramp up time/burst when needed. Same with amber shaper, cleaving adds means massive throughput for him, but the massive poison damage controls the construct-y things better.

    Both are good for different things but will work well together. Plus you've got all the incentive to tricks each other now.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Refrakt View Post
    Actually my other rogue already have the Spiritsever dagger with legendary gem and a heroic stone guard dagger. Not sure whether he will rolling on another Spiritsever dagger if drop, cause you can't equip it with another legendary gem < heroic stone guard dagger.
    Unless it's a H Spiritsever, he shouldn't be rolling on it. Not sure that switching specs would really reduce any competition for gear... I mean you'll be mostly using all the same BiS except for weapons, and even then, you can be using daggers as OH as combat.

    Just do a couple fights as combat and see if your DPS is as competitive as it is as assassination.

  9. #9
    Neither. Sub.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilate View Post
    Assassination stays decently ahead of Combat on single target until you get extremely geared. By extremely geared, I'm talking 504ish and up. At about that point and on, Combat starts to catch up. In full BiS, Combat has a slight edge. It's not unexpected since that's how it's usually been in previous expansions and will remain so for this one too. Assassination's problem is that it starts out good but the stat weights just aren't in its favor. Assassination's EP values are:

    Agility: 2.74
    MH dps: 2.4
    Mastery: 1.12
    Haste: 1.00
    Crit: .99

    Respectively, Combat's EP values are:

    MH dps: 4.93
    Agility: 2.74
    Haste: 1.62
    Mastery: 1.43
    Crit: 1.04

    The fact that Combat's EP values just crush Assassination's means that it's inevitable, that as in Cataclysm, Combat will probably completely eclipse Assassination for single target by next tier. For pete's sake, Combat gets 27% more from mastery than Assassination and Mastery isn't even Combat's best secondary stat. It's just embarrassing for Assassination when you look at the EP values for MH dps. Combat gets over 100% more. Again, none of this is completely unexpected however.
    You can't compare EPs to compare the performance--or even the gear scaling--of the spec. Assassination gets more dps per point of AP than combat does so its lower EP values are offset by more dps per point of attack power.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by skitz0129 View Post
    Neither. Sub.
    Quiet, troll.

    As to the OP's question, stick with Assassination on single-target until you get a H-Gara'kal or H-Claw. Then Combat will start catching up on single-target. Combat will still pull ahead on multi-target though (except Wind Lord).

    Either way, I've found Assassination's gemming to be the best fit for people that swap specs often (as in, you're losing less DPS w/ Mut gems as Combat than you are w/ Combat gems as Mut).
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
    Rogue - Warlock

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilate View Post
    Assassination stays decently ahead of Combat on single target until you get extremely geared. By extremely geared, I'm talking 504ish and up. At about that point and on, Combat starts to catch up. In full BiS, Combat has a slight edge. It's not unexpected since that's how it's usually been in previous expansions and will remain so for this one too. Assassination's problem is that it starts out good but the stat weights just aren't in its favor. Assassination's EP values are:

    Agility: 2.74
    MH dps: 2.4
    Mastery: 1.12
    Haste: 1.00
    Crit: .99

    Respectively, Combat's EP values are:

    MH dps: 4.93
    Agility: 2.74
    Haste: 1.62
    Mastery: 1.43
    Crit: 1.04

    The fact that Combat's EP values just crush Assassination's means that it's inevitable, that as in Cataclysm, Combat will probably completely eclipse Assassination for single target by next tier. For pete's sake, Combat gets 27% more from mastery than Assassination and Mastery isn't even Combat's best secondary stat. It's just embarrassing for Assassination when you look at the EP values for MH dps. Combat gets over 100% more. Again, none of this is completely unexpected however.
    You can not compare the 2 specs based on EP values. 1 EP doesnt not equal the DPS gain per spec. So 1 spec may need more EP to gain 1 dps compared to another spec. So EP rating is not apples to apples.

    In terms of scaling, combat and assa are about 4.5% apart in current difference in BIS. Combat is gaining about .5% per tier. There are some haste breakpoints that can cause the gap to close quicker, but I think it wont be until heroic gear in next tier to really close the gap. Also the ilvl of the gear next tier will be interesting too. If its 2 tiered (502 + 509 kind of thing) like in this tier, than ilvl inflation will be rapid.

    I pretty much feel things will be like cata, but cause of assassination and poison crits, combat will not over-take assa as quickly.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    Quiet, troll.

    As to the OP's question, stick with Assassination on single-target until you get a H-Gara'kal or H-Claw. Then Combat will start catching up on single-target. Combat will still pull ahead on multi-target though (except Wind Lord).

    Either way, I've found Assassination's gemming to be the best fit for people that swap specs often (as in, you're losing less DPS w/ Mut gems as Combat than you are w/ Combat gems as Mut).
    He's not really a troll. If you can play sub well. It's pretty decent imo.

  14. #14
    Dreadlord Vanthem's Avatar
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    Does anyone have any numbers of the difference in DPS between Mut and Combat Rogues at the moment. I have been playing Combat this entire tier thus far due to weapon drops mostly, but I am interested in finding out just how much better people are thinking Mut is over Combat.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Enhshamanlol View Post
    He's not really a troll. If you can play sub well. It's pretty decent imo.
    Yea this, I'm not trolling. Play it properly and Sub is really damn good honestly.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanthem View Post
    Does anyone have any numbers of the difference in DPS between Mut and Combat Rogues at the moment. I have been playing Combat this entire tier thus far due to weapon drops mostly, but I am interested in finding out just how much better people are thinking Mut is over Combat.
    Numbers would come from SimulationCraft. You can see their T14H BiS evaluations, but what you really want is to download the entire program, and simulate your character in your combat gear/spec against your character in your assassination gear/spec. Pretty simple; import from the armory, pick fight length, # of iterations, buffs you expect to have... run, see results. Assuming you don't actually have multiple sets of gear for different specs, you can use a couple of online tools to "alter" your character's gear to preview changes.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-10 at 05:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by skitz0129 View Post
    Yea this, I'm not trolling. Play it properly and Sub is really damn good honestly.
    Unfortunately in realistic gear atm it's not yet keeping up with assassination.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanthem View Post
    Does anyone have any numbers of the difference in DPS between Mut and Combat Rogues at the moment. I have been playing Combat this entire tier thus far due to weapon drops mostly, but I am interested in finding out just how much better people are thinking Mut is over Combat.
    (only theoretical numbers here)

    Shadowcraft has me pulling 102k in my current gear as Assassination (Mut reforges, Combat gems), and 98k in full Combat gear/gems/reforge w/ H-Gara'kal fully upgraded and N-Spiritsever upgraded and gemmed. Take that how you will.

    Off the top of my head, I was pulling 78k on Qiang (Heroic) as Mut w/ Combat reforges while pulling 72k on the same portion of Heroic Spiring Kings as Combat.

    I'd say at the heroic raid gear ilvls, the two specs pull VERY close to each other on single-target, with a slight edge to Assassination depending on the mechanics of the fight.
    As others have said, Combat will be pulling ahead next Tier for sure; Mastery can only scale so high right now for Assassination before "that extra percent of Mastery" becomes kind of meaningless.
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
    Rogue - Warlock

  18. #18
    High Overlord
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    what i have been doing is just collecting 2 sets of gear so as i can swap specs to suit what fight i am doing , since i am the only agiliy leather wearer in my 10man team its easy enough for me to do it

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    (only theoretical numbers here)

    Shadowcraft has me pulling 102k in my current gear as Assassination (Mut reforges, Combat gems), and 98k in full Combat gear/gems/reforge w/ H-Gara'kal fully upgraded and N-Spiritsever upgraded and gemmed. Take that how you will.

    Off the top of my head, I was pulling 78k on Qiang (Heroic) as Mut w/ Combat reforges while pulling 72k on the same portion of Heroic Spiring Kings as Combat.

    I'd say at the heroic raid gear ilvls, the two specs pull VERY close to each other on single-target, with a slight edge to Assassination depending on the mechanics of the fight.
    As others have said, Combat will be pulling ahead next Tier for sure; Mastery can only scale so high right now for Assassination before "that extra percent of Mastery" becomes kind of meaningless.
    I don't see how you doing 6k more with mut with sub optimal reforges than you did with combat with optimal reforges is "VERY close."

    Also, on what basis do you claim combat will pull ahead next tier? Your mastery argument is illogical. Afaik, there is no cap on mastery for assassination, and assassination mastery also doesn't have diminishing returns. Now certainly, there is probably a point where "that extra percent of mastery" becomes worth less than an equal amount of rating in another stat, but that isn't really related to the scaling between assassination and combat.

    @OP
    I recommend getting the dagger and using that for your gem and using the dagger OH for combat. Unless my assumption is wrong and you can have 2 gems as long as you don't attempt to use them at the same time?

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