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  1. #1

    (Frost, Unholy) Loss of taunt. Why?

    So I can't really grasp why frost and unholy has lost the ability to taunt (e.g. Dark Command), while all Paladins, Druids, Warriors and Monk still have it baseline. I know that death grip might be a substitute, but it has a far longer cooldown (unless you kill something with the glyph).

    I used to have the ability to help get mobs of healers etc and kite with HB but since death grip does not increase threat, and also pulls the target to you, thus making it more likely that you take a lot of otherwise avoidable damage, it really isnt a viable option most of the time. Please don't comment that tanks should get their game together, i'm mearly asking why we lost functionality that we used to have, but now are lacking to some extent.

    Also an awesome pulling ability while questing, and i still find myself pushing my old keybind when i gather up mobs :/

    Any input, and does anyone want to ask about it on the US forums (as i can't)?

    edit: added underscore for visibility
    Last edited by Un0; 2012-12-06 at 04:48 PM.

  2. #2
    I felt myself missing it aswell every now and then, but was perfectly fine with it. Untill I found out that everyone else has their taunts in dps spec. Its extremely rare situations, but stupid stuff like taunt+nitro boosts kite does save lives at times. Just lame that we lost the opportunity.

  3. #3
    High Overlord Jarg's Avatar
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    We still have DG for those rare situations

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by hunty View Post
    but was perfectly fine with it. Untill I found out that everyone else has their taunts in dps spec.
    This right here is what this thread is really about.

  5. #5
    Not all classes need to be homogenized to a certain point, every class has their own little things. For balance sake all classes do have modified versions of what other classes have. Let's take a quick look at Rogues and Monks. Rogues have an interrupt that costs little energy and has a 15 second cooldown. Monks on the other hand have a higher cost interrupt with a 25 second cooldown, but this version instead also silences.

    I look at Death Knights and say Warriors the same way. Warriors have a taunt, Death Knights have a higher cooldown taunt that also pulls a target to a different position. I really don't think this is that big of a deal. I'm sure plenty of Warriors would also be in situations where they think ''Wow I so wish I could pull that mob to my place right now instead''.

    Things however need to be adjusted when one class can do things other classes can't. I can't think of a good example right now but I think I got my point across.
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  6. #6
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
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    I really don't need to taunt anything as Frost/Unholy. You can always use IT to range-pull mobs.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarg View Post
    We still have DG for those rare situations
    No we don't. Clueful DPS DKs have DG glyphed to not taunt. You'll only remove that glyph if you know you'll need to taunt beforehand, which basically never happens. You only need to taunt as a DPS in emergencies.

    We brought this up many times in beta and did not get a dev response.

    WW monks have a similar problem. They can taunt, but they don't get the tanking stance, so they can't emergency tank either.

    When you think about it, monks and DKs share a similar issue-- their core tanking mechanic is baked in to the specialization rather than the presence. Only blood DKs get blood shield. Only brewmaster monks get stagger. They won't have their active mitigation, but DPS warriors and paladins can always equip a shield, which is much better than nothing.

    Interestingly, rogues with symbiosis are the best emergency tanks in the game by a large margin. Demo locks would be even better still, but they can only tank via a glyph so it isn't available in an emergency.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2012-12-06 at 05:06 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Not all classes need to be homogenized to a certain point, every class has their own little things. For balance sake all classes do have modified versions of what other classes have. Let's take a quick look at Rogues and Monks. Rogues have an interrupt that costs little energy and has a 15 second cooldown. Monks on the other hand have a higher cost interrupt with a 25 second cooldown, but this version instead also silences.

    I look at Death Knights and say Warriors the same way. Warriors have a taunt, Death Knights have a higher cooldown taunt that also pulls a target to a different position. I really don't think this is that big of a deal. I'm sure plenty of Warriors would also be in situations where they think ''Wow I so wish I could pull that mob to my place right now instead''.

    Things however need to be adjusted when one class can do things other classes can't. I can't think of a good example right now but I think I got my point across.
    Would just like to point out that the Monk interrupt is not 25 seconds, it only silences if you strike the target from the front, and it has been changed in 5.1 to cost as little energy as rogues (10)

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    When you think about it, monks and DKs share a similar issue-- their core tanking mechanic is baked in to the specialization rather than the presence. Only blood DKs get blood shield. Only brewmaster monks get stagger. They won't have their active mitigation, but DPS warriors and paladins can always equip a shield, which is much better than nothing.
    dks can switch to blood presence, which is pretty nice. probably even better than just equipping a shield.
    it's not like dps warriors/paladins block that much.


    I would really like our normal taunt back though. There are times during like Lei Shi on the last 1-30sh% where I need to taunt cause one of the tanks died for whatever reason. tank takes it back, I can't grab it back because deathgrip is still on CD so the that tank dies.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    No we don't. Clueful DPS DKs have DG glyphed to not taunt. You'll only remove that glyph if you know you'll need to taunt beforehand, which basically never happens. You only need to taunt as a DPS in emergencies.

    We brought this up many times in beta and did not get a dev response.

    WW monks have a similar problem. They can taunt, but they don't get the tanking stance, so they can't emergency tank either.

    When you think about it, monks and DKs share a similar issue-- their core tanking mechanic is baked in to the specialization rather than the presence. Only blood DKs get blood shield. Only brewmaster monks get stagger. They won't have their active mitigation, but DPS warriors and paladins can always equip a shield, which is much better than nothing.

    Interestingly, rogues with symbiosis are the best emergency tanks in the game by a large margin. Demo locks would be even better still, but they can only tank via a glyph so it isn't available in an emergency.
    WW Monks get a passive +20% parry if they're attacked from the front.

    They might wear leather, but they're sturdy in a pinch.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by bals View Post
    dks can switch to blood presence, which is pretty nice. probably even better than just equipping a shield.
    it's not like dps warriors/paladins block that much.


    I would really like our normal taunt back though. There are times during like Lei Shi on the last 1-30sh% where I need to taunt cause one of the tanks died for whatever reason. tank takes it back, I can't grab it back because deathgrip is still on CD so the that tank dies.
    This isn't a good enough substitute, druids can go bear form, pallies and warriors only need to throw up their "stance" and throw on a shield and they can offtank a bit.

  12. #12
    Banned Temporary Poster's Avatar
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    It was OP. Taunting water elementals to break your sheep was pissing off GC's mage.

    How come almost nerf that happens in wow, can be traced to being a problem for mages in pvp ?! Seriously. Avatar immunity to CC nerf = mage issue. Gag order nerf = mage issue. BW immunity to cc nerf = mage issue. Hunter overall nerf (biggest enemy of a mage) = mage issue. Rogue mobility nerf = mage issue.

    Seeing a pattern here.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Not all classes need to be homogenized to a certain point, every class has their own little things. For balance sake all classes do have modified versions of what other classes have. Let's take a quick look at Rogues and Monks. Rogues have an interrupt that costs little energy and has a 15 second cooldown. Monks on the other hand have a higher cost interrupt with a 25 second cooldown, but this version instead also silences.

    I look at Death Knights and say Warriors the same way. Warriors have a taunt, Death Knights have a higher cooldown taunt that also pulls a target to a different position. I really don't think this is that big of a deal. I'm sure plenty of Warriors would also be in situations where they think ''Wow I so wish I could pull that mob to my place right now instead''.

    Things however need to be adjusted when one class can do things other classes can't. I can't think of a good example right now but I think I got my point across.
    Point is, death grip doesnt taunt, it's more like mocking blow, giving you temporary fixation, but not threat. And further to the point, we had taunt before, but it was removed with the revamp of talents and specs with patch 5.0.x.

    This honestly only seem like an oversight, but if it is not then I can find no good reason as to why. Diversity or less homogenization is rather moot here, we are talking really low level mechanics of interaction in the game that is standarized for all classes with the ability to tank, except for death knights. This does seem more like "discrimination" for lack of a better word.

    Also, every interupt in the game (that is all interupts which has their main purpose beeing interupting i.e. Mind Freeze, Kick, Pummel etc.) have a 15 sec cd, specifically to not give advantage to classes. This is simply because the spells are low level mechanics of interaction, i.e. they should all work the same, such as to give no class an unfair advantage, or make encounters dependant on those classes.

  14. #14
    Pit Lord Alltat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Temporary Poster View Post
    How come almost nerf that happens in wow, can be traced to being a problem for mages in pvp ?!
    Because of confirmation bias on your side, I assume. Is there any problem in the world that can't be traced to mage PvP problems if you really want to?
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  15. #15
    I am Murloc!
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    One of those things again, which makes you wonder why the hell is anyone defending this nerf to begin with, especially since not a single person seems to be capable of explaining the reasoning behind the removal of the ability.
    've is short for have. C/Sh/Would've or c/sh/would have. Not c/sh/would of.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    No we don't. Clueful DPS DKs have DG glyphed to not taunt. You'll only remove that glyph if you know you'll need to taunt beforehand, which basically never happens. You only need to taunt as a DPS in emergencies.
    I"m curious how often dps DKs death grip. Only time I've seen is when someone gripped an Emperor's Rage off of me in a raid.

    Anyway it's pretty ridiculous that you are complaining that you don't have a taunt when in fact you do, but are choosing a glyph which makes it not a taunt.

    The most obvious answer to me as to why DKs don't all ahve dark command is that they didn't want DKs having two taunts and death grip is more useful (since it's a taunt with the grip component), but they also let you drop the taunt from it in case you only want the grip portion. In other words, they came up with a perfect solution for what they intended and the only possible complaints are "what if you want to taunt more frequently than death grip's cooldown?" or "what if you want to be abel to grip without taunting, but still be able to taunt by other means?", neither of which a DPS is entitled to as far as I"m concerned.

  17. #17
    I'm making an assumption that the other DPS specs only have one taunt (but I don't play Warriors/Paladins/Monks so I could be wrong) and they wanted to make it so that we also only had one taunt. Now imagine the QQ if we lost Death Grip, or if they forced the removal of the taunt from Death Grip. It is absolutely a signature spell, and there would be so much rage.

    If you have Death Grip glyphed then it's your choice to give up our taunt, there's no room to QQ over that choice that you have made (I also made that choice, fwiw).

  18. #18
    as a Ret Pally... yeah no. Just equipping a shield and throwing Righteous Fury on doesn't make us a tank.

    Lower Health
    Baseline block chance (3%) only, cause Ret Mastery doesn't help
    Barely 1 defensive CD (provided you glyph'd it to do all dmg by 20% instead of the baseline 40% magic)
    Baseline Dodge

    We'll squish pretty damn quick. A Warrior can still use Shield Wall while in a DPS spec. The equivalent for a Paladin (Guardian of Ancient Kings) changes based on spec.
    Last edited by ZeroEdgeir; 2012-12-06 at 06:24 PM.
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    It takes more now to impress many gamers than it did 2-5 years ago, because so much has already been seen and done.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Not all classes need to be homogenized to a certain point, every class has their own little things. For balance sake all classes do have modified versions of what other classes have. Let's take a quick look at Rogues and Monks. Rogues have an interrupt that costs little energy and has a 15 second cooldown. Monks on the other hand have a higher cost interrupt with a 25 second cooldown, but this version instead also silences.

    I look at Death Knights and say Warriors the same way. Warriors have a taunt, Death Knights have a higher cooldown taunt that also pulls a target to a different position. I really don't think this is that big of a deal. I'm sure plenty of Warriors would also be in situations where they think ''Wow I so wish I could pull that mob to my place right now instead''.

    Things however need to be adjusted when one class can do things other classes can't. I can't think of a good example right now but I think I got my point across.
    Well I agree this statement I will offer this tibit: While it is true the warrior cannot 'grip the target to themselves' they CAN leap to the target so they are still able to close the gap just as a dk can so your statement is a slight red herring.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Un0 View Post
    Point is, death grip doesn't taunt, it's more like mocking blow, giving you temporary fixation, but not threat.
    yes it functions exactly like taunt. the glyphs existence pretty much proves this, and it says so quite literally in the description. the skill itself is vague, and should probably be re-worded, but it's a taunt.

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