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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Roach View Post
    Haha, just checked mine after viewing this post. It has me dropping a lot of expertise for haste for a 4.9 dps loss..

    (2xupgrade on mh.) Guess I'll stick with my exp forges for now.
    Shadowcraft bases its decisions on your current stats. Its entirely possible that doing something it suggests flips the values. Assuming you haven't discovered a bug, if you hit the reforge button again, it should have reforged back (or to something else higher).

    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    I think its worth mentioning that expertise only increases damage done when you are on target while mastery will increase damage done both on and off target due to harder DP ticks. As such, if you do a dummy test, you should include set periods of time off target to simulate boss mechanics and look at your damage done as opposed to your dps.
    If you're dummy testing, I hope you are not sub and using the raid buff dummy with sessions of 1 hour of your optimal level of play minimum or its near worthless. Theres a reason simcraft runs thousands of iterations. 1 5 minute test, sim or actual, isn't likely to give you enough information to be useful... in fact if it did, you could probably have eyeballed the choice if you knew the mechanics well enough.

    I think you are trying to say mastery is better if you are off the target more because it is ticking. Expertise is also really good if you are getting off target a lot though. If you are off even a relatively short time you will energy cap and at that point having your stuff dodged is wasting energy and also delaying combo points if you need to refresh something. If you have been off a while or are opening, having stuff dodged will significantly increase your ramp up, such as having your mut dodged preventing applying rupture or SnD. Again its about variance.

  2. #42
    High Overlord
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    New York
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    112
    7.5% hit = 7.5% expertise > mastery > haste > crit

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by tyran View Post
    7.5% hit = 7.5% expertise > mastery > haste > crit
    After pages of discussion, it's obvious this is neither particularly useful to post now, nor is it accurate for all characters.

    Personally my characters has hit >> mastery > crit=>expertise > haste... for patchwerk. I value expertise more highly for predictability and the reasons Sessh has mentioned, but in any case, the values you list are just wrong.
    Last edited by Kael; 2012-12-15 at 02:08 AM.

  4. #44
    Too many experts. Lol.

  5. #45
    Keyboard Turner
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    8
    Hi,

    i haven't been played sins end of cata... and now i want back to game, so my knowledge can by out of date.

    But, in cata i have exp as low as possible(cap was around 24, and i had around 4-6) because poisons always(!) hit, they change it?

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by szary View Post
    Hi,

    i haven't been played sins end of cata... and now i want back to game, so my knowledge can by out of date.

    But, in cata i have exp as low as possible(cap was around 24, and i had around 4-6) because poisons always(!) hit, they change it?
    Poisons can't be dodged or parried, but they can miss. They use the melee hit cap of 7.5%, so with 7.5% hit, your poisons always land, regardless of your expertise.

  7. #47
    Keyboard Turner
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    8
    so still we dont need exp
    and on raids we have a lot of room to stay on ass of boss? If yes, we dont need exp

  8. #48
    Bosses still dodge backwards, don't forget. In "good" gear it will often be beneficial to have expertise -- see the past two pages of comments -- especially if you're off-boss for any length of time.

    Also, welcome to MMO-C.

  9. #49
    If what Mugajak is saying is the truth and parried/dodged attacks procs poisons then that in it self devalues expertise as having mutis dodged would be a theoretical dps increase. Considering that Rogues play different from your average button-mashing class/specc the only real loss from not being expertise capped would be from white attacks which is not that big of a deal(Looking at my lastest Gara'jal, white damage represents 14.3% of my damage. This is full-time up) since a dodged muti is potential poison damage and having a envenom dodged still gives the buff. So unless you pool energy to a point of a missed GCD will get you capped we do not actually gain all that much from expertise.

    This is purely speculation from what experience I have playing rogue and my understanding of the class, if something is wrong please point it out. This is not to say that I think ignoring expertise is the way to go, merely that we do not benefit as much as others from it because of our slow play style.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by szary View Post
    so still we dont need exp
    and on raids we have a lot of room to stay on ass of boss? If yes, we dont need exp
    Standing behind or in front of the boss is irrelevant now in terms of expertise value. Expertise has the same value in the front and behind. The only difference is that the cap is higher from the front. There is no double dipping with dodge+parry and expertise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azerano View Post
    If what Mugajak is saying is the truth and parried/dodged attacks procs poisons then that in it self devalues expertise as having mutis dodged would be a theoretical dps increase.
    Hes saying the poisons, should they proc, themselves can't miss. I'm pretty sure an attack that didn't land can't proc a poison, but some one feel free to correct me on this.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Standing behind or in front of the boss is irrelevant now in terms of expertise value. Expertise has the same value in the front and behind. The only difference is that the cap is higher from the front. There is no double dipping with dodge+parry and expertise.



    Hes saying the poisons, should they proc, themselves can't miss. I'm pretty sure an attack that didn't land can't proc a poison, but some one feel free to correct me on this.
    Ah yes, of course. Going to blame it on how late it was when I wrote that.

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