Raids in GW2?

[Repefe]

I don't think there is a way to create strategically interesting fights with GW2's combat mechanics. The entire allure of prestigious raiding is the encounter puzzle. Figuring out that puzzle is the key mechanic of raiding as popularized by Everquest.

I thought nowdays the key mechanic is to find strategy video on youtube or elsewhere and practice it till boss is dead. What puzzle are you talking about ...

[Deleted]

I thought nowdays the key mechanic is to find strategy video on youtube or elsewhere and practice it till boss is dead. What puzzle are you talking about ...

This :P

Seriously, let's not glorify the "I taunt, you hit his ass while Joe is filling the green bars" mechanic too much. Honestly, I can't say which of the encounter style is more boring.

They (Anet) had GREAT opportunity to really push the genre forward in terms of boss mechanics - they've failed. Failed miserably. Fights are just too easy and non-complex. Then again, holy trinity system is getting old and latest expansion in WoW showed they are running out of ideas - which is natural.

It's a shame we don't have (functional) successor.

[Maarius]

I don't think there is a way to create strategically interesting fights with GW2's combat mechanics. The entire allure of prestigious raiding is the encounter puzzle. Figuring out that puzzle is the key mechanic of raiding as popularized by Everquest.

I don't think so at all. The most interesting Boss-battles (and more important: most fun) I had in WoW (to bring an example of a game which is known for it's great raid-mechanics) where those which didn't rely on Tank-Healer-Aggro mechanics.



Stating that such battles would be impossible with GW2's combat mechanics is far away from reality if you ask me. Interesting mechanics have nothing to do with the trinity. The trinity can be a tool to create such encounters, but there are many tools out there.

[raptorak]

I really don't think raids would work on GW2 because of how the dungeons are designed. It's like they were a massive after-thought, and I have the feeling the raids would be just as bad, if not worse.

If they were to plan them out a bit prior and work on ironing out issues, it may work, but in the game's current state I just don't see it happening.

[Jovanaar]

Dungeons like The Deep, Urgoz? Yes

Raids, No.

[Zdrasti]

Personally I think with more than 5 people things get crowded. The game mechanics just do not support a large raid environment, imo.

That being said, 5 mans are a great size and tons of fun. While I'm sure opinions differ, that new fractals dungeon is the most fun 5 man I've done in quite some time. I guess it's fair to mention that I don't have the time (nor have the passion) to grind it over and over and over again. But the dungeon itself has been absolutely fantastic. More of that and there's no reason to really care for raiding.

[Deleted]

I don't think we need raids, but it should be possible to make a group of more then 5... to do WvW or the world events...

[Azuri]

I think raids wouldn't work very well with the current design. There are plenty of games that have raids already.

I thought the player base made it very clear that they wanted a unique game. Good or bad they should stick to that. The moment you add raids the comparisons will start and as I said earlier I don't think it would fair as well as a trinity type raid which could be more harmful then beneficial to players perspective of the game.

[Deleted]

And yet - supposedly - it's still too hard for 95% of most MMO playerbases.

What?! Who doesn't raid in wow? I think only the most severe disabled people as of LFR, anyone not blind and with IQ higher than 50 can clear whole content.

Anyway.. this is about GW2. I think they could create valid boss mechanics for raids if they would change their approach, cause right now, it's just mash-till-dead mechanic ;p.

[Durzlla]

Dungeons like The Deep, Urgoz? Yes

Raids, No.

I second this!! Those instances were AWESOME!!

PS: I remember reading somewhere that Anet said they'd start off with easier dungeon content and then release more difficult content in the future, i wouldn't be surprised if what we have now is Anet sort of, "testing the waters" because GW2 and GW1 -are- very different, so they may just be unsure about how to go about making the encounters.

I mean, cmon, i don't think there were really any "mechanics" to GW1 fights other than something fairly simple like Duncan the Black summons tons of spirits and Urgoz kills people who stand still for too long.

[Repefe]

I second this!! Those instances were AWESOME!!

PS: I remember reading somewhere that Anet said they'd start off with easier dungeon content and then release more difficult content in the future, i wouldn't be surprised if what we have now is Anet sort of, "testing the waters" because GW2 and GW1 -are- very different, so they may just be unsure about how to go about making the encounters.

I mean, cmon, i don't think there were really any "mechanics" to GW1 fights other than something fairly simple like Duncan the Black summons tons of spirits and Urgoz kills people who stand still for too long.

Yeah ... I don't really yearn for raid instances, but solid challenging dungeons ? Sign me in. Also GW1 wasn't about bosses ... getting to bosses was the challenge and it was fun.

[zito]

I never had the urge to do dungeons in GW2 after the first day I hit 80.

Same with fractals the day it was released. It's not because of the reward it's just.... nothing interesting to me in the dungeons.

[Fencers]

I thought nowdays the key mechanic is to find strategy video on youtube or elsewhere and practice it till boss is dead. What puzzle are you talking about ...

Typically raid encounters are a design puzzle where a group is intended to figure out the pattern or process of defeating the encounter.

The choice to go look that stuff up on youtube is player driven and applies to many games, genres and game modes. Once can look at YTs on the boss encounters of God of War or Shadow of the Collsi but that doesn't make those game encounters any less a design puzzle.

I don't think so at all. The most interesting Boss-battles (and more important: most fun) I had in WoW (to bring an example of a game which is known for it's great raid-mechanics) where those which didn't rely on Tank-Healer-Aggro mechanics.

That's fine if one enjoys that personally. Not sure why that would matter to anyone else. But fine all the same.

Stating that such battles would be impossible with GW2's combat mechanics is far away from reality if you ask me. Interesting mechanics have nothing to do with the trinity. The trinity can be a tool to create such encounters, but there are many tools out there.

No. I think my statement is pretty accurate and would likely not be disproved should raid-like environments occur in Guild Wars 2. The combat system Anet created is not suitable to strategic play. Everything is tactical, twitch based. The options available to players to support each other meaningfully isn't in the basic design of the combat system.

As Sham said, it's "every man for himself" for the most part. They'd just end up with larger versions of dungeons in GW2.

That is not the grail of Everquest.

[Lane]

So my question is do you think it work with raids in GW2?

I myself would love to have some raids to do something that needs 15+ coordinated friends to beat and i have never understood why so many on are against it. If we would get raids in GW2 that dose not mean we will get vertical progression. why would we need that? They could make it so you could get cool looking armor sets from those raids and the prestige of killing that hard boss all in the name of fun. The best thing about such a raid system would be that there wont be any raids that go obsolete because there is no vertical progression.

So what do you think? would it be good/bad with raids give us your thoughts on this topic and if you hate raids so much please do tell why.

Fanatic out see you in Tyria

People would still ask for vertical progression though. As much as casuals get labeled as entitled I've never seen any group QQ more than raiders. They really don't want anyone else in their games to have anything. They always want all the best content, all the best gear, all the best vanity items, all the best titles, and you'd think the world had come to an end if ever any "welfare epics" are introduced or, heaven forbid, alternative means of obtaining anything other than via raiding.

I've personally known very, very few people who raid for the enjoyment of it. Were there no incentive to do it I sincerely doubt many would participate simply for the enjoyment of coordinated encounters. Even vanity items wouldn't be enough and would only entice a select crowd, most of whom would probably rather not have to raid to be a little prettier/badass.

Not to mention that you can get raiding in almost any other MMO, I really don't feel it needs to be in GW2 as well.

[Fencers]

People would still ask for vertical progression though. As much as casuals get labeled as entitled I've never seen any group QQ more than raiders.

That is because the process of raiding is by design, exclusionary.

It was only with the massive popularity of Warcraft that the Sally Standsinfire and Charlie Casual were exposed to raiding. That WoW made raiding popular and accessible is a conflict between popular perception of raiding [doing a raid, doesn't make you a raider per se] tradition.

Or as my EQ guild leader once said of WoW: Many guilds raid. Few are raiding guilds.

We have a lot more players exposed to raiding as gameplay mode via post-WOW MMOs than ever intended or feasible in many past MMOs.

[Repefe]

Typically raid encounters are a design puzzle where a group is intended to figure out the pattern or process of defeating the encounter.

The choice to go look that stuff up on youtube is player driven and applies to many games, genres and game modes. Once can look at YTs on the boss encounters of God of War or Shadow of the Collsi but that doesn't make those game encounters any less a design puzzle.

Typically raid encounters are exercise in execution. There is nothing puzzling about fighting the same boss for the 20th time. And you talk puzzles on one side and then switch to strategy and then tactics and twitching ... GW2 is fully capable of having bosses that need strategy to kill. If you yearn for more interaction between professions ... that's a valid request, but I don't really see where raids ala WoW are any better in this regard. You have healers who heal everyone ... end of interaction. Dps care only about dps. Tanks just control the mobs.

Not to mention who really likes to raid these days ... wasting whole evening playing a game ? No thank you.

[Lolsteak]

I guess you can also try to be one of the people that tackle the content before it's nerfed to death and there's 500 videos on how to beat it.

....or you can just wait until after the huge nerfs and 1000 videos and then start the trash talk. =D



And yet - supposedly - it's still too hard for 95% of most MMO playerbases.

And maybe that's the reason so many people want it for GW2, because in reality Trinity mechanics force you to rely on others, taking a decent chunk of responsibility out of your hands.

In GW2 you mainly rely on yourself, and you can still complete a decent amount of encounters with some people dead.

Personally i'd rather not rely on others, Tanks rely on Healers and Healers rely on Tanks.. DPS just derp about abit.

[Durzlla]

Some more of that both-ways stuff....whenever I have brought up LFR in the past to respond to the "No one raids!" claims, I get told that LFR isn't real raiding. /sigh

You can't argue with raiders Bo, no amount of facts, or yipping, will ever get them to side with you unless you're saying that raiding is awesome, you can't even say it's casual friendly or only for elitists anymore either, they get so hostile and angry about everything...

Which is another reason not to have raids, in my experience people who enjoy raids are very mean and angry people and tend to be very hostile... Say NO to raids!!

PS: Larger group content =/= raids, an instance like Urgoz or The Deep would be awesome!

[Sojou]

This game's PvE component is abysmal, there's no way any type of large scale (10+ people) PvE would be any fun more than the first initial zerg kill. Just look at how terribly boring the dynamic event system ended up.

[Fencers]

Typically raid encounters are exercise in execution. There is nothing puzzling about fighting the same boss for the 20th time.

Yes, execution is important too. Figuring out an encounter is still part of the design.

GW2 is fully capable of having bosses that need strategy to kill.

Based on what I have seen in game, I would say in practice that is not the case currently. At least not demonstrated by any dungeon or meta event I have done- which is all but like 3 or so.

I didn't make a case of "better than" either. Don't imagine an argument I am not making.

Not to mention who really likes to raid these days ... wasting whole evening playing a game ? No thank you.

That's your call. I really don't care.