Thread: Raids in GW2?

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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Huehue.

    I still don't care about enjoying the game. I only am interested in how it is designed, the hows & whys of it's play systems.

    Just don't care too much about fun w/r/t video games.
    Except in order to understand how things are designed, and how and why the way things work, you have to actually play them. To say that a Guild Wars 2 dungeon, is simply 5 players soloing next to each other; akin to that of 5 random players in the world killing a champion, is completely ignorant.

    GW2 has endless synergy and depth among organized parties, but the build diversity in the game is so high that you won't be able to find 'the best build' online. Also, the tools to do serious number crunching aren't provided. People just love to have their hand held and are too lazy to figure it out for themselves.

    If you think that it's as one dimensional as you say it is, then i implore you to go and try higher level fractals (13+). Or even a round of explorables without having to repair once; with 5 people who have unorganized, sloppy builds and run around in circles auto attacking with their ranged weapon. I'm sure you'll be equally successful.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by The Darkitecht View Post
    Except in order to understand how things are designed, and how and why the way things work, you have to actually play them. To say that a Guild Wars 2 dungeon, is simply 5 players soloing next to each other; akin to that of 5 random players in the world killing a champion, is completely ignorant.
    I have played and cleared all the dungeons [save 1 path in HOTW] and all the fractals. The design of the game did not feel any different in any of these dungeons/fractals.

    Your presumption is foolish.

  3. #83
    Guardian Trait: Crits grant party members might!
    Warrior spell: gives party members 20% crit! (A boon guardians cannot easily acquire)
    Warrior Banner: Boon duration increase.

    a very simplistic example of 3 skills in synergy to provide a great affect.

    now do that with every rune, sigil, trait, gear choice for all 5 members of your party, and compare that to 5 players running around shooting their rifle/scepter with a 5 signet build.

    Sure, as has been argued a thousand times on this and other internet forums, you can be 'successful'. If success is taking an hour or more to do an explorable, having to graveyard zerg and repair multiple times.

    Progression in GW2's current state:

    1) Finish the dungeon in a long and painful manner.
    2) Finish the dungeon hopefully faster, with greater understanding of what caused the pain.
    3) Finish the dungeon even faster, with very little pain.
    4) Do 5 dungeons in the time it takes most groups to do 1.

    Y'know, the skill based progression that was promised before the game launched.

    You're not going to achieve or progress without accepting the combat depth and synergy that exists in this game, and to argue that there is none, or that the game is shallow and doesn't change how is played based upon said synergy...is again, ignorant. You just haven't tried, because anyone who has spent sufficient time understanding the combat system and plays with like minded/experienced individuals will know exactly where I'm coming from.

    p.s, I too completed everything on my first character, my first time doing each dungeon. That did not make me an expert.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    I have played and cleared all the dungeons [save 1 path in HOTW] and all the fractals. The design of the game did not feel any different in any of these dungeons/fractals.

    Your presumption is foolish.
    How high did you get in fractals? Once you get to 20+, it really starts to get challenging. You can't just "zerg" or make mistakes, you have to have an organized group who knows how to dodge well, use appropriate gear, and equip the right abilities.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by VibrantViolet View Post
    How high did you get in fractals? Once you get to 20+, it really starts to get challenging. You can't just "zerg" or make mistakes, you have to have an organized group who knows how to dodge well, use appropriate gear, and equip the right abilities.
    A little after the agony mechanic kicked in to the point where it was more damage than you could handle. About 15 or so. Haven;t played in a bit. I only play in guild group. Only PUG'd in GW2 beta. :>

    Challenge isn't an issue I have raised though. I do think GW2 dungeons are tuned pretty okay in that regard.

  6. #86
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darkitecht View Post
    Guardian Trait: Crits grant party members might!
    Warrior spell: gives party members 20% crit! (A boon guardians cannot easily acquire)
    Warrior Banner: Boon duration increase.

    a very simplistic example of 3 skills in synergy to provide a great affect.

    now do that with every rune, sigil, trait, gear choice for all 5 members of your party, and compare that to 5 players running around shooting their rifle/scepter with a 5 signet build.

    Sure, as has been argued a thousand times on this and other internet forums, you can be 'successful'. If success is taking an hour or more to do an explorable, having to graveyard zerg and repair multiple times.

    Progression in GW2's current state:

    1) Finish the dungeon in a long and painful manner.
    2) Finish the dungeon hopefully faster, with greater understanding of what caused the pain.
    3) Finish the dungeon even faster, with very little pain.
    4) Do 5 dungeons in the time it takes most groups to do 1.

    Y'know, the skill based progression that was promised before the game launched.

    You're not going to achieve or progress without accepting the combat depth and synergy that exists in this game, and to argue that there is none, or that the game is shallow and doesn't change how is played based upon said synergy...is again, ignorant. You just haven't tried, because anyone who has spent sufficient time understanding the combat system and plays with like minded/experienced individuals will know exactly where I'm coming from.

    p.s, I too completed everything on my first character, my first time doing each dungeon. That did not make me an expert.
    This isn't as deeply syngergised as your example, but i know two of my friends who play together ALL the time went with an ele + warrior set up and the ele runs with a staff, so they have a ton of combo fields and the warrior picked up a metric shit ton of combo finishers, so they just tear through things together.

    And then idk what me and glytch managed to do but my guardian + his warrior = an unstoppable duo, granted if we get separated for what ever reason we can't do much other than hold enemies off, but together we just absolutely destroy things xD.
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  7. #87
    Elemental Lord Snowraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    I only dislike cosmetics and dungeons actually. The latter I am not forced to play. The former I don't have to spend money or effort on.
    Fair enough.


    I don't like the assumption here. Its harmful to the medium.

    It assumes one has attached their cart to one horse ["is this the game for you?"], that enjoyment is the chief motivator ["if you dislike it..."] and can also imply monetary value as a factor in critique.

    Noting poor or good design should always be of interest to players. A game is foremost about gameplay.

    Enjoyment is your own thing. I do not care about enjoyment as a discussion topic- its typically useless/anecdotal.
    Now hold on... first that was just a suggestion of a question you should ask yourself if you dislike the game so much since I mostly saw you complain. You said that's not true, so good for you, then it's understandable if you complain about things you dislike as points in a game you still like as a whole.
    That said, about the first part you assumed something. When I said "is this the game for you?" I don't mean you're only playing this game, but as in "are you sure you like playing this game?"

    And yes, like. Now we get to second point, enjoyment. Guild Wars 2 is a game. Games are played for enjoyment. That is the chief motivator. You could say that they can also be social hubs, this can also be true for MMOs, though in a lesser extent, but the primary goal of games is enjoyment, fun as it's called. And no, you don't also put monetary value as a factor. Oh, if you say, for 60$ I have more fun then for 40$ once+15$ per month sure, but if you put the monetary factor as a major factor for buying a game I don't think it's a suitable factor. For example, there's plenty free to play games, like fully free to play, yet I'm not playing all myself even if I'm not in a really good situation financially. Why? They're free, so no money and I get free game? Well... no, because in many of those games I'm not having fun. So, see the idea, no enjoyment = no play. I don't play a game I don't really enjoy because it costs less then another that is better.

    If anything, I'd rather save money each month and get the game I like or wait for discounts then buy a crappy game similar instead but that isn't fun for me just because it's same genre but cheaper.

    Because that's why I play games in the end, for enjoyment. That is the sole factor in playing a game. The monetary factor is only a factor in not playing a game, as in, I can't afford game X now, so even though it's good I won't play it. But it is never a factor in keeping playing said game if I dislike it.
    In general though, since I can't lose much, I am careful with what games I buy though and won't buy it it doesn't appeal to me just because it belongs in a universe or something. This is why I didn't buy MoP for example, even though I was and still am to an extent a WoW fan, it didn't appeal to me at all.

  8. #88
    How high did you get in fractals? Once you get to 20+, it really starts to get challenging. You can't just "zerg" or make mistakes, you have to have an organized group who knows how to dodge well, use appropriate gear, and equip the right abilities.
    Was only a matter of time before the whole, "You must be THIS progressed to discuss the content." stuff started, I guess. =D

    Also, Fencers gets twice as much fun as I do, apparently...not only the, "You just hate the game, it's not for you!" stuff, but also the whole, "You're a mod, you're supposed to be in love with the game!" angle as well. I'm envious.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnorei View Post
    And yes, like. Now we get to second point, enjoyment. Guild Wars 2 is a game. Games are played for enjoyment. That is the chief motivator.
    Not at all. One can derive interest despite enjoyment. The two are not linked universally.

    By virtue of being a game wouldn't necessarily mean any particular game was made solely for entertainment, i.e. revenue.

    I can think of examples of this across a number of media. The question as to whether some one "likes" a film, book or video game [as in this case] is mostly useless to criticism.

    And yes, I do think it is spectacularly harmful to the medium for "gamers" [& scare-town quotes around that because I have open contempt for the vulgarity of the vg audience] to contain judgement along an axis of likes/value.

    I don't apologize for the belief that the average video game player is undeserving of the medium.

  10. #90
    Legendary! Spl4sh3r's Avatar
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    Instead of raid dungeons they could add raid dynamic events that you start with specific items. Collect all those items and have your group ready and go! This might also bring back people to those zones that don't see many players. So ofcourse they put them there

  11. #91
    Elemental Lord Snowraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Not at all. One can derive interest despite enjoyment. The two are not linked universally.

    By virtue of being a game wouldn't necessarily mean any particular game was made solely for entertainment, i.e. revenue.

    I can think of examples of this across a number of media. The question as to whether some one "likes" a film, book or video game [as in this case] is mostly useless to criticism.

    And yes, I do think it is spectacularly harmful to the medium for "gamers" [& scare-town quotes around that because I have open contempt for the vulgarity of the vg audience] to contain judgement along an axis of likes/value.

    I don't apologize for the belief that the average video game player is undeserving of the medium.

    So, let me get this straight, you play games just to see what is good and what is bad in them, sort of like... an art critic?
    Ok, how do you critique a game then? Don't you use subjectivity? For example, someone might feel a cartoony style is crap, while someone might feel too lifelike style is also crap. Someone might find... fractals awesome, and someone might not. I belive even critique is subjective and based on personal preferences. This is why i always tell people when they ask if they might like X game, I give examples of how things work in game and tell them to think/try the game themselves, since I can't know if they'd like it.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnorei View Post
    So, let me get this straight, you play games just to see what is good and what is bad in them, sort of like... an art critic?
    No. I just find the design of games more interesting than the actual [enjoyment] play experience.

    Gameplay is objective as games predicated on a system of rules. Critique comes in how well the game is executed &/or how well written those rules are. They are play systems.

    One doesn't have to enjoy Mega Man X or Puerto Rico to point out the thoroughness of game design. No more so than one need find Salo or Maja Ratkje enjoyable.

    The investigation itself & for it's own sake is worthwhile and a motivator apart from base enjoyment.

    I do enjoy video games [as with all games digital, or otherwise] for recreation and pleasure, natch. It's just about as useful as talking about my favorite pizza toppings.

  13. #93
    anchovies and pineapples

  14. #94
    Fluffy Kitten Azuri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    anchovies and pineapples
    OMG terrible now I know why you don't like the games I like. Pizza toppings are a direct correlation to the games you like or don't like to play. I like scientific studies.
    • PSN ID: Azuri118 •

  15. #95
    Elemental Lord Snowraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    No. I just find the design of games more interesting than the actual [enjoyment] play experience.

    Gameplay is objective as games predicated on a system of rules. Critique comes in how well the game is executed &/or how well written those rules are. They are play systems.

    One doesn't have to enjoy Mega Man X or Puerto Rico to point out the thoroughness of game design. No more so than one need find Salo or Maja Ratkje enjoyable.

    The investigation itself & for it's own sake is worthwhile and a motivator apart from base enjoyment.

    I do enjoy video games [as with all games digital, or otherwise] for recreation and pleasure, natch. It's just about as useful as talking about my favorite pizza toppings.
    I will just conclude we don't really agree with this and most likely never will. I belive the design of games is interesting only if you plan on designing a game yourself, otherwise you value the gameplay and how much fun and enjoyment you get out of it. This is what I think. But maybe that's because I find enjoyment in a lot of little things, like when my hippogryph in WoW started walking I'd run in circles for hours on it because I loved the animation, or when the halloween stuff was in GW2 I spent quite some time in that mini-game with the skeletons and destroying the crypts running in the grass to see how it bends since I found it cool.

    Yes, one does not have to enjoy games to point good points and shortcomings in them, but they need to understand what people find enjoyable in them. Because otherwise you might critique something that everyone likes, and thus the question goes to "why do you critique something that works good?". Obviously this is not the case of dungeons in GW2, there are things to critique about them, but talking in general now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azuri View Post
    OMG terrible now I know why you don't like the games I like. Pizza toppings are a direct correlation to the games you like or don't like to play. I like scientific studies.
    You like scientific studies on pizza? Well... if that's what you like... thought doesn't it taste like paper when you eat them? Or do you put them on digital form before you put them on the pizza turning the pizza into a giant CD?

  16. #96
    I will just conclude we don't really agree with this and most likely never will. I belive the design of games is interesting only if you plan on designing a game yourself, otherwise you value the gameplay and how much fun and enjoyment you get out of it.
    There's really nothing to agree/disagree on, it's just different levels of appreciating the medium. There's nothing strictly WRONG with looking at...say...a painting and having no understanding of any of the underlying techniques but saying, "Ooo, pretty." just like there's nothing wrong with looking at the same painting as an experienced painter and saying, "Pretty, but the brushstroke technique (or whatever, just making shit up here) is flawed. Not a technically well done painting at all."

    Of course, when those two people try to discuss the painting later, they'll just be bashing their heads on a wall trying to understand the position of the other. =D

    Edit: The phrase "ignorance is bliss" really is sort of true here. I think I enjoyed the act of playing games a lot more before I really understood anything about them at all. (I remember playing EverQuest and asking myself, "What's with all this balancing and tuning stuff? Just make a bunch of mobs and let us kill em!") The more I learned, the more I started critiquing little technical elements as I played, elements that I would never have even noticed or cared about before. Now I spend as much time analyzing the guts of the game as I do actually just playing it. Bah!
    Last edited by Bovinity Divinity; 2012-12-15 at 04:46 PM.

  17. #97
    Bloodsail Admiral MKing's Avatar
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    Raids won't be in GW2, and shouldn't be in GW2.

    I've been raiding in games since EQ1, EQ2, SWG, and WoW, i have done every single instanced PVE from vanilla til the end of cataclysm.
    I still have the time and ability to do raids, but i don't want to anymore, they aren't fun.

    Unlike what you believe about the popularity of raiding, it's not very popular. Out of the 10 million players WoW may or may not still have less than 5% raids, and that's after LFR. A company isn't going to add something that most of their players have no interest doing. It isn't profitable.

    I loved raiding back in the day, i participated in server firsts on a highly competitive server the whole time i played the games. But it isn't for me anymore. I enjoy fighting bosses with 4 of my closest friends instead of with a bunch of people i have no real interest in getting to know. Raids take more effort than they are worth and sometimes the people in your group can be too frustrating to deal with.

    I'm sorry but raiding is dying, It isn't marketable. People like playing MMOs casually now or for the story, exploration, ETC.

    I could go on with why raids wouldn't work with GW2 or other subjects about raiding, but enough has been said.

  18. #98
    Yay, we're making up more numbers to support our positions!

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