Thread: Gearing Alts

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  1. #1

    Gearing Alts

    playing alts in arena is fucking frustrating and it will get worse the further the season goes. with the upgrade system the item gap is immense and it will increase and increase the later you realise that blizz fucked up your main class in pvp and you decide to level an alt.

    does anyone have any idea what blizzard could do to change that? im sure they are totally helpless, because obv noone at blizzard thought of this when they planned to add those item upgrades. they wont come up with a solution by themself.

    the community has to work out a fix to this mess. sadly i have no fucking clue what could be done.

    come on ppl, brainstorm!


    edit:
    looks like nadagast made a great post over at the us forums:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7415462574
    Last edited by gbtg; 2012-12-18 at 06:45 AM.

  2. #2
    It wouldn't be so bad if you didn't have to wait 4+ weeks to get a weapon that accounts for half of your pvp power.

    Either make a honor weapon or make your season point total account wide maybe.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by gbtg View Post
    playing alts in arena is fucking frustrating and it will get worse the further the season goes. with the upgrade system the item gap is immense and it will increase and increase the later you realise that blizz fucked up your main class in pvp and you decide to level an alt.

    does anyone have any idea what blizzard could do to change that? im sure they are totally helpless, because obv noone at blizzard thought of this when they planned to add those item upgrades. they wont come up with a solution by themself.

    the community has to work out a fix to this mess. sadly i have no fucking clue what could be done.

    come on ppl, brainstorm!
    Are you going into Arenas with full Dreadful gear? I mean, what else can they really do besides lower the stats on the epic gear vs. the honor gear?

  4. #4
    the gear upgrade system is easily one of the most stupid things blizz has ever come up with, for both pve and pvp.

    was it really that hard to put things on the vendors for people to buy wit the excess conquest? l
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  5. #5
    Nah, i realy like the idea behing the Itemupgrade, espaciliy for PvE. But the problem with this system is that blizzard release it at a point when the idea behind the system wasn´t finished. I think there should me more options to upgrade your gear and not just the stupid and limited valor point system.
    I mean what about a system where you get an extra token for every boss kill, like the gem-tokens from Spine and madness, so you just got your reward for killing a boss, not for stupid daylie grinding.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by gbtg View Post
    playing alts in arena is fucking frustrating and it will get worse the further the season goes. with the upgrade system the item gap is immense and it will increase and increase the later you realise that blizz fucked up your main class in pvp and you decide to level an alt.

    does anyone have any idea what blizzard could do to change that? im sure they are totally helpless, because obv noone at blizzard thought of this when they planned to add those item upgrades. they wont come up with a solution by themself.

    the community has to work out a fix to this mess. sadly i have no fucking clue what could be done.

    come on ppl, brainstorm!
    Alternative characters are theoretically not supposed to match the performance and accomplishments of your main character. Getting 10,000 honorable kills to get geared is definitely not as issue for me because you surely learn a little something along the way. Then when you're ready to take your gameplay to the next level you can enter the arena and from there strive for some really noticeable improvement. The only Issue I have is that they have yet to implement a PvP weapon for Honor Points and due to the ridiculous amount of PvP Resilience and PvP Power of the weapons it puts you at a great disadvantage for a few weeks.
    Last edited by Senathor; 2012-12-12 at 03:37 PM.

  7. #7
    Bloodsail Admiral zenga's Avatar
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    The idea behind making resilience baseline and introducing pvp power was:

    - to give pve players baseline mitigation when they wanted to do a bg occasionally, or when they wanted to jump into pvp mid season without gear i.e. not let them have the feeling of being worthless until they have gear
    - to encourage getting pvp gear, so that pve items (trinkets, set pieces, weapons) would no longer be preferred over pvp items
    - to make it easier for pvp players to do a dungeon, lfr, raid with their pvp gear, as it would be better itemised than the traditional pvp gear that was worthless in pve.

    This is what they said in several interviews, wrote in a blog and on their forum.

    My reaction when I first heard this theory was: great now I can finally play alts without having to do both the never-ending pvp and pve grind, during which you contribute nothing to your team/raid.

    With adding the item upgrade to pvp gear, they basically turned this whole idea upside down. Remember that the item upgrade was introduced as an incentive to keep the top ranked players active (i.e. so they wouldn't sit an entire season on their ranking). It was a demand from the pvp community to make the ladders more active. Though they came up with the item upgrade rather than the 2 most suggested changes, being rating decay and/or merging battlegroups.

    A team can still sit the entire season on their rating by just getting conquest points from rbg's. And the gear grind is even bigger than ever, and so is the gear dependency. On a freshly dinged toon you need approximately 30k honor to get the basic blue gear, without a pvp weapon. And another 25k honor points to upgrade your gear. At 200 average honor per bg with a 50/50 W/L ratio you are looking at 200+ bg's to get full blue upgraded gear. At which point you don't even have conquest gear and are still miles behind.

  8. #8
    We will be seeing more bots.

  9. #9
    Blizzard don't want you to have tons of alts. It was an unintended result of cataclysm, and to a lesser extent WOTLK where there wasn't enough to do. This seems to be one of their major goals of MoP: to counterbalance all the quality of life, convenience time saving changes with new thing to do. I'm pretty pleased with the item upgrade system... it gives me less apathy for arena. Even though 2.2 is out of my reach I can strife to 1800, 1900, 2000 so I can reach a higher cap and work on item upgrades.

  10. #10
    The Patient
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    I think they said they are going to look at giving alts a helping hand gearing in PVP.

    Someone quote above saying they don't want you to have lots of alts - it was a cata mistake. Why would they not want to you have many alts? You still have to level them up - get the profs up - I for one love playing on many chars, all mediocre but still I like the variety.

    I am hoping they do something that gives you a big boost either by allowing you to get more each week or by multiplying rewards for alts

  11. #11
    I don't care about alts so much as the upgrade system making it impossible to compete unless you start early in the season.

    Imagine some Cataclysm player who comes back to the game after getting MoP for Christmas. Once he hits 90 Blizzard's idea of gearing a new guy is getting the Contender's 450 set. By then a lot of people will have fully upgraded gear which will get them over 490 item level. How much fun are you going to have in PvP when you're over 40 item levels behind the top? It's even worse than just being 40 ilvls behind since you won't even have a PvP weapon and will miss a ton of power and a good bit of resi. Sure, most people you meet won't have that good gear, but even a couple of malevolent pieces + upgraded honor gear will put someone 20 item levels ahead in those battlegrounds the you're supposed to grind for the honor gear + upgrades.

    With the Cata system you could just accept being gimped even semi geared people while catching up but now you can never catch up! Even once people are full malevolent geared they'll still keep gearing up with upgrades and keep the distance to you. Even worse, the people ahead of you have bigger conquest caps and they gear up faster, so the gear gap just keeps getting wider and wider. Not only is there no catch up mechanism for someone who comes into the season late, there's a mechanism to pull everyone already ahead in gear even further ahead in gear every week.
    Last edited by jaakkeli; 2012-12-12 at 06:46 PM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Senathor View Post
    Alternative characters are theoretically not supposed to match the performance and accomplishments of your main character. Getting 10,000 honorable kills to get geared is definitely not as issue for me because you surely learn a little something along the way. Then when you're ready to take your gameplay to the next level you can enter the arena and from there strive for some really noticeable improvement. The only Issue I have is that they have yet to implement a PvP weapon for Honor Points and due to the ridiculous amount of PvP Resilience and PvP Power of the weapons it puts you at a great disadvantage for a few weeks.
    You don't learn a thing from undergeared BGs at the moment, only what it's like to be farmed for 20 minutes repeatedly. I have my alt in full contenders with a few dreadful pieces and no weapon. I still get globalled by almost everything. It's got better since the few dreadful pieces, but it's still pretty much alive to dead in 2-3 seconds by any other class.

    I'm not even a new player though, I know their abilities and can try to do what I can to counter them in that limited timeframe. A new player will get so absolutely turned off from pvp by this, it's insane. They won't stand a chance, will get murdered left right and center and even with gear there will be no immediate visible sight of it improving for them.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Gnolp View Post
    You don't learn a thing from undergeared BGs at the moment, only what it's like to be farmed for 20 minutes repeatedly. I have my alt in full contenders with a few dreadful pieces and no weapon. I still get globalled by almost everything. It's got better since the few dreadful pieces, but it's still pretty much alive to dead in 2-3 seconds by any other class.

    I'm not even a new player though, I know their abilities and can try to do what I can to counter them in that limited timeframe. A new player will get so absolutely turned off from pvp by this, it's insane. They won't stand a chance, will get murdered left right and center and even with gear there will be no immediate visible sight of it improving for them.
    You're practically forced to play defensively - positioning and CD management are exceptionally important. Sure you will occasionally be annihilated by an outgeared player. But you get use to the essentals. You will definitely not become super skilled, but you'll get a hang of all the basic things for sure.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Gramla View Post
    Nah, i realy like the idea behing the Itemupgrade, espaciliy for PvE. But the problem with this system is that blizzard release it at a point when the idea behind the system wasn´t finished. I think there should me more options to upgrade your gear and not just the stupid and limited valor point system.
    I mean what about a system where you get an extra token for every boss kill, like the gem-tokens from Spine and madness, so you just got your reward for killing a boss, not for stupid daylie grinding.

    how is this system remotely good for pve? it forces people with limited play time ( indeed as much as a forum troll as i am, my ingame time is mostly limited to raids) to do non raids to compete in pve. i've got all my factions at exalted, i need nothing off any of the vendors, i have like 1000 of the stupid charms built up i have noooo desire to valor cap anymore. the fact that dallies are rewarding raid currency is stupid, and that even if you are clearing the whole tier each week you STILL need to do dallies to cap out is even more stupid.

    why couldn't they just have put BoEs on the vendors or allowed the valor to conquest trade to help pvers keep up in pvp like they have in the past i'll never understand. there was no problem with that system.

    the system punishes pvers and pvpers who have limited playtime and prevents people from being on an even playing field gearwise.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  15. #15
    It should get better once we have a full season of Arena under our belts. The discrepancy between the Contender Gear and Dreadful/Malevolent is huge. Once the Arena gear is obtainable through honor then starting out in BGs won't feel so miserable. This happens every time with a new expansion, so it's not like this is some new phenomenon.

    And why shouldn't people that have already invested their time into the game be able to dominate a person with little to no gear just starting out? What do you expect, hand-me-outs?
    Last edited by bionics; 2012-12-12 at 09:07 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    how is this system remotely good for pve? it forces people with limited play time ( indeed as much as a forum troll as i am, my ingame time is mostly limited to raids) to do non raids to compete in pve. i've got all my factions at exalted, i need nothing off any of the vendors, i have like 1000 of the stupid charms built up i have noooo desire to valor cap anymore. the fact that dallies are rewarding raid currency is stupid, and that even if you are clearing the whole tier each week you STILL need to do dallies to cap out is even more stupid.

    why couldn't they just have put BoEs on the vendors or allowed the valor to conquest trade to help pvers keep up in pvp like they have in the past i'll never understand. there was no problem with that system.

    the system punishes pvers and pvpers who have limited playtime and prevents people from being on an even playing field gearwise.
    If you have limited play time maybe it's time to own up to the fact that you aren't really that competitive.

  17. #17
    Brewmaster Nigeldruid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bionics View Post
    Are you going into Arenas with full Dreadful gear? I mean, what else can they really do besides lower the stats on the epic gear vs. the honor gear?
    Weapon is what's missing. If you're a half decent player, you'll play around 1700 - 1800 rating in full dread, and you will be playing players with weapons basically every game, and you wont get your weapon for 3 - 4 weeks. Remember, upgraded weapon is 5,1k pvp power, which is almost the same as that on a full dreadful gear. I have 6,1k PvP power on my full dreadful geared alt, resil gems, 2 upgraded piece, and 1 malevolent. With upgraded weapon I'd go up to 11,2k.
    Nothing worth having comes easy. That's why hard content is worth doing, and easy content is a waste of time.

  18. #18
    And why shouldn't people that have already invested their time into the game be able to dominate a person
    Because those new players have no way to invest time in the game and catch up in gear. All they can do is unsub until the next season.

    I haven't even been PvPing. I "PvP" at 1500 rating to get me and some mates some gear to use in PvE. That's gotten me a mostly Malevolent set that makes people with only Dreadful level gear total pushovers. I have NOT put in a lot of effort into getting this gear, just a bit of scrub level arena for an hour once per week over several months. The only key is doing it over those several months. Then you're set and fresh 90s are totally screwed, no matter how much time and effort they put into gearing they'll never reach me. With the upgrades I'll be able to keep ahead forever.

    In fact, I never even put in the effort to farm a full Dreadful set for myself, at the start I went from some leveling quest green to a Malevolent item. It takes more time and effort to grind one Dreadful piece than to cap arena for that one Malevolent piece! ANYONE that actually has a full, upgraded Dreadful set has put a FUCKING SHIT TON more effort into gearing up for PvP than I have, yet my set is almost 20 ilvls ahead and an absolute ton ahead in damage thanks to the weapon. Does this system make sense?

    with little to no gear just starting out? What do you expect, hand-me-outs?
    Again, the problem is THERE IS NO WAY TO START OUT. You start PvPing at the start of the season or you're out of the game. It's not even just getting facerolled, it's that no one will play with you if you're behind in gear unless you already have PvPing friends who will tolerate you being there with crap gear. So, great, you get to do an hour of PvP per week for the next month and then you have to log off until the next week. After a month of playing 1 hour per week of cap 2v2 you get the weapon and a scrub RBG pug might finally consider you. Yay.

    Christmas is soon and a lot of former players will probably get MoP and check it out then. They can get back into PvE no problem, if you have former experience some raiding guild will take you and throw some farm boss loot that would get DEd at you. You won't reach the others' gear level fast but you'll soon be geared enough that you can be a useful team member. But you can't properly get into PvP anymore until next season. There is no catch up mechanism, instead with the extended cap there's a mechanism to make people who outgear you outgear you even more next week.

    Some scrub level PvPer like me who puts an hour each week to getting capped in arena will dominate the multiseason gladiator guy who gets MoP for Christmas even if he starts playing 24/7 because the system doesn't reward for skill or effort, it's designed to reward you for logging on regularily. Which is probably intentional but likely to backfire on Blizzard since it's so incredibly hostile to coming into the game at any other time than a season start.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeraxis View Post
    If you have limited play time maybe it's time to own up to the fact that you aren't really that competitive.
    watch out, we have a badass over here.

    i know i speak for of a lot of people when i say i just don't have much interest in things outside of raiding or pvp. i'm not interested in grinding rep any more then i need to to get the gear i need, i'm not interested in transmog gear, or pets or any of the other minutiae and time wasters in the game. i'm certainly not interested in doing non raid content in order to cap my raid currency.

    people shouldn't be forced to do rbgs or dallies to cap out their currency in order to remain competitive. i thought this xpac was all about how YOU want to play? i want to raid and i want to do arena, i don't want to do busy work for pandas or rbgs.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  20. #20
    Warchief Henkdejager's Avatar
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    Well MoP was suppose to be a good expansion for PvPers , it is all changing into the worst expansion for PvP ever. Sure the dailies get you in a " war " between the horde and the alliance and yes the lore says there is a war..BUT, this season is SO un balanced , GC never gave a shit about the class fauls in beta and now all of a sudden when things did not work out he is going like " will be fixed next patch , working as intended" i can name over 10 abilities and alot of classes wich basicly suck at this point in PvP.

    1. Rogues , they completly sucked in 5.0.5 and were no where to be found in any high end 3s or 5s team. Now they are starting to come out of their shell again.
    2. Hunters have WAY to many buttons atm , our lvl 90 talent power shot is bugged as hell, GC says it is intended , but a GM on the forum says it will be fixed for 5.2. oowh hee hunters you have an broken ability ? wait 4 months then we'll fix it!
    3. Warriors / Hunters / Mages burst is WAY to sick , maybe even more classes. It is all about burst in this season. Plus CCs are WAY to many. On the arenajunkies website you got people complaining , people who achieved 2,6k multiple times and yet they have done NOTHING against the burst untill late 5.1 .
    4. Self heal , Shadow priest self healing was WAY over the top , it made no sense that a shadow priest did more healing in a 2s/3s then a disc 1. What the hell ? what happends , they nerf Shaman/Ret pala self healing wich wasn't even the problem to begin with. The warrior self healing spell , Second Wind. It does 11k ticks , yes i saw that in an arena the other day. He goes Deff stance , equip his shield , pops CDs and jeej! no dmg for the next what ? 8 to 10 sec? or well..2k hits gogo! Yet nothing has done as of yet.
    5. Resto shaman are way out of controll , they are in nearly EVERY 3s team and when they say that totems is the blame , they nerf enha/elem deff even more. Why? like they had such a good deff system to begin with , like we did not burned them down in 4sec already..nothing has bin done to fix those broken specs.
    6. Gearing alts is WAY worse then ever, there was a thread created when the PTR was up , all kinds of PvPers were in the thread complaining about the item upgrade , even a blizz GM said " ok we'll keep this thread open" yet nothing has bin done , nobody likes the upgrade system ( PvP wise ) still it got implented for PvP aswell.
    7. People have bin asking for years now , since season 9 people have asked for things like , ( there wasn't transmog back then i know , i am just refering it as transmog for now) Gear , vanity pets , vanity weapons , more mounts, yet were in season 12 and NOTHING has bin added , what they do add is a stupid upgrade system wich no1 likes.
    8. Bots , we all know them and we all face them. We see the same person botting in a BG for the wholl evening and yet , the next morning we see him again! Still botting in bgs. We report them countles of times nothing will or has bin done, When we go to the forums to complain , our threads gets deleted and we get banned from the forums! Way to go blizzard!
    9. No Honor weapons! Blizzard said in the start of this season , " Pvers don't have to PvP to get their gear and vica versa" yet we HAD to run hcs for our 463 hc weapon to be " competive" for the next 3-4 weeks. What the fucking hell blizzard? Do you even know what VICA VERSA means ? We are now in half way the season , where are our honor weapons ? no where to be found!
    10. Rogues , Monks , Enha/Ele shaman , Disc priest , MM hunters , Afflic warlock are all broken specs / classes! They need either a huge buff or something new to make them stand out and makes us choose this! For monks and disc their is a fix coming , but for the rest ? nothing in side and nothing new to come for the next 4 months! 4 Months until we can try out our new given class in PvP at a competive level and not get killed in 5sec..
    11. Dailies , every1 disliked them on the forums and ingame ( personal i did not , run the golden lotus / shado pan / order of the cloud and now busy with the august and after that i stopp i got then everythng i wanted from the factions) But yet they keep creating more dailies , and more dailies and more dailies! Ok we get it it's your game! you can't do everything we want , but atleast give the people who dislike it another way to do it , like we get approx 1-2k rep per day, why can't the people we don't like dailies, run the instances for the 1-2k rep a day? Why not ? Whats the problem ?
    12. Back in beta , people compained about classes beeing over powered , under powered or what ever! GC said , There is nothing wrong! it will be fixed on live , yet nothing has bin done! And when we tell him on either twitter or on the forums , we get a lame respown of him that it was intended or either a fix is coming , BUT it is coming in about...4 months so you gotta wait! Because dailies got more priority then balance! yes pvp has NEVER bin balanced but this is WAY out of controll!
    13. Warlocks DMG was way to sick , there is a video on youtube that shows a lock going 1v3 on a Hpala / hunter / war and with his AOE he kills the Hpala and the hunter , then easy kills the warrior. His heals are like a healer and his DMG / reduced dmg is like a raid boss, some stuff has bin fixed but chaos bolt hitting for 60k ? I mean come on ? They say it's a skil spell, yet every warlock can cast it on you , and don't come with the you gotta interrupt it , you know you are easy feared , the again feared , and look a 60k chaos bolt! their goes your HP! Nothing has bin done yet , if it is a skill shot why not let power shit hit for 3000k? it is bugged as hell and hunters are lucky to get it off once or twice in arena. So why not make it in istance kill right ? Or give it the same DMG as Chaos bolt.
    14. GC has NO love for this community , he has 0 respect for some players, couple examples :
    When the shaman nerf of totems was coming in , a concerned shaman asked him on twitter:
    " why the change for shaman ? For resto ok , but for enha / ele it is game breaking!"
    his Respown was:
    " Silencing an enha / ele shaman is like disarming a mage , it has no use"
    Clearly shows, he does not play this game , really ? not silencing an ele shaman is skill ? letting him do his full burst power on you is smart?
    Second example , he uses his BLIZZARD AVATAR , BLIZZARD NAME AND HIS BLIZZARD BIO ON HIS TWITTER ACOUNT!
    yet when you asked him something he does not respown ( understandable , but ) or he just gives you a dumb answer, like i do use my twitter Acount for social stuff to. I mean what the hell? You use everything from Blizzard and yet you use it for personal stuff? He asked a question , about how he should pour his coffee or what the background of his twitter acount should be , what the hell man ? what the hell ? If you ask me , it is time for a new lead designer! No offence to this guy , but he should quit for real.


    As you can see those are 14 big points that NEED to either be addressed or they are doing something atm or they already did but it took them 2-3 months to realize or they never cared in beta.

    Yes i am still subbed and playing , not a full QQ post , just my 2 cents of points that need to be taken a look at , or they have done that now but it took way to long!

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