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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Veliane View Post
    Ret's melee affinity and dependance has been defined since mid TBC when they revamped CS and the Vengeful paladin gear.
    In WotLK, Divine Bladestorm made it scale but fillers weren't bad.
    Cata gave us holy power and it will forever be reminded as the expansion that made all fillers complete garbage.

    However MoP has given us the most ranged damage we've ever had, and while big weapons mean a dramatic increase on DPS, I'm not bothered because Judgement hits harder than CS and HoW than TV.

    Remember cata 4.0 judgement? yeah...
    Well I'll need to check my logs but TV is my hardest hitter at around 60k average and can often crit up to the 150k range. While my HoW is around 30k or so, maybe it's just my gear level - 478 - but the biggest benefit of HoW to me is as a HP generator so I can get off more TV. Now that I've got the 4-set I'm hard pressed on whether to take Avenging Wrath for raiding or Sanctified Wrath since I'm an herbalist and I can line up my haste CD with wings and AW to pretty much just hammer -> TV -> hammer -> TV.

  2. #22
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Well I'll need to check my logs but TV is my hardest hitter at around 60k average and can often crit up to the 150k range. While my HoW is around 30k or so, maybe it's just my gear level - 478 - but the biggest benefit of HoW to me is as a HP generator so I can get off more TV. Now that I've got the 4-set I'm hard pressed on whether to take Avenging Wrath for raiding or Sanctified Wrath since I'm an herbalist and I can line up my haste CD with wings and AW to pretty much just hammer -> TV -> hammer -> TV.
    If you have 4 set and use HA you are doing it wrong and should give the 4 set to someone with a little more common sense.

    HoW hitting for 30K? rofl? what.

    Mine crits in the 200k range easily.
    The sad part is you are u sing HA so your HoW should be +30% mines damage.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2012-12-15 at 05:41 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    If you have 4 set and use HA you are doing it wrong and should give the 4 set to someone with a little more common sense.

    HoW hitting for 30K? rofl? what.

    Mine crits in the 200-300k range easily.
    Congrats?

    Look, I'm just saying what my particular gear level is offering and explaining my particular dilemma. No need to be a jerk-wagon.

    I'll need to check recount again but last time I did so Hammer of Wrath was not a star player and only doing the same damage range of CS and Judgment.

  4. #24
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Congrats?

    Look, I'm just saying what my particular gear level is offering and explaining my particular dilemma. No need to be a jerk-wagon.

    I'll need to check recount again but last time I did so Hammer of Wrath was not a star player and only doing the same damage range of CS and Judgment.
    And I'm saying if thats what you get you are doing something horribly wrong. But hey ignore expert opinions when offered it. I'm pretty new to ret and have no idea what I'm talking about

    If you want to be coddled and looking for sugary rainbows. Sorry I don't post that kinda crap I tell you how it should be working. If that doesn't agree then check your shit.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-15 at 05:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Also there's one other thing you need to take into consideration, MoP has so far been almost punishing to melee compared to range in terms of ease of fights. The pain starts with the stone guardians and there's not really too many - if any - fights where I think melee is preferred. So take that into consideration as you're learning.

    Good luck and enjoy swinging the light!
    MoP is extremely melee friendly on fights. Not sure who told you otherwise.

    I guess not tunneling is hard though for some people? or the raid executing the fight properly

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    And I'm saying if thats what you get you are doing something horribly wrong. But hey ignore expert opinions when offered it. I'm pretty new to ret and have no idea what I'm talking about

    If you want to be coddled and looking for sugary rainbows. Sorry I don't post that kinda crap I tell you how it should be working. If that doesn't agree then check your shit.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-15 at 05:53 PM ----------



    MoP is extremely melee friendly on fights. Not sure who told you otherwise.

    I guess not tunneling is hard though for some people? or the raid executing the fight properly
    Dude, I didn't ask for sugar-farts and rainbows but you can explain your actual opinions without being rude. I will check my results later tonight when I have the chance.

    And do you raid 10 or 25? From what I understand 25 is a bit friendlier, but let's go ahead and cover the fights shall we? (BTW, I raid 10 when we do it, on holiday hiatus and my guild is extremely bad.)

    So Stone Guard, getting chained to a healer or ranged will come damn close to killing you consistently. Also staying out of pools that drop in melee and mines, all of which tend to cause more problems in melee than for ranged.

    Feng, tank fails on the absorb and you've got epicenter that is going to cause more damage to melee than ranged, Resonance will also cause more damage to grouped melee.

    Gara is about equal.

    Spirit Kings I'd agree that it's very melee friendly.

    Elegon, yes, running out of melee to clear your charges of Overcharged is extremely melee friendly.

    Will of the Emperor, this one is about equal but a lot of it depends on what role you've been assigned.

    So at least 1/2 the fights in the first raid have mechanics that punish melee harder than ranged.

    I'd say that's melee unfriendly. Not a big deal, just how it is and in general DPS should even out a bit because of cast times and uptime on bosses.

    Sorry you're having a bad day, but if you'd like to pick a fight on the Internet please just keep going. I really don't have time to deal with your inflated ego over a game.

  6. #26
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    Cut it out, guys.

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  7. #27
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    oh yes elegon is so melee unfriendly. Running out as you kill orbs is just so terrible.

    Let me break it down for you.

    1. Stone guard, Run tiles or faceroll double bosses. Make ranged move their ass. That is anti ranged not anti melee

    2.Feng Sit on boss zzzzzzz super easy

    3. Garajal, as close to patchwerk you will ever see. But i guess 125k dps is melee unfriendly

    4. Spirit kings, movement, it's everyone unfriendly STOP DPSING SHIELDS.

    5. Elegon is ULTRA MELEE + ret friendly, % damage taken AMGGGGG wings

    6. Will emps Melee friendly, ret either solo tanks and soaks strength sparks or does 100 million damage to the boss with rogues stomping the ranged

    7. Zor lok, You can dps attuneation if you aren't slow and actually notice the patterns. Melee friendly, P3 heroic is AMGZKBLARRGG for everyone but we have bubble so it's ret friendly too

    8. Blade lord, Ultra ret and melee friendly

    9. Garalon LEGS BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURN melee/ret friendly

    10. Wind lord, No wind bombs % damage taken boss that ret > everyone on. Ret/melee friendly

    11. Amber shaper, we don't have to move oozes closer, melee friendly LOL ranged.

    12. Empress Heroic. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ AFK JUST DPS LOL MELEE EZMODE

    13. Protectors, Melee ez mode. H:elite will be aids because kaolans massive zone makes him a dick, but it's overtuned anyhow so who cares.

    14. Tsulong, MY LOINS. simple fight, try to get breathed on and those eternal flame and Execution on boss for super goodness healing

    15. Lei shie, AFK BURN. the only melee unfriendly thing is we have no aoe to search for her in hide.

    16. Sha of fear. ranged friendly because moving from all that shit flying at you is totally not a dps loss.

    There the entire tier from a 16H 25 perspective.

    Melee is not hard, people said T11 was melee unfriendly too. It wasn't

    Also don't judge 25heroic if you can't even do them since you're stuck in 10man. I can actually run both when we don't have time to finish MSV or HoF from 25 progression and 10man is laughable in comparison. Not 10 man bashing but my experience is that it is infact easier because i have actually DONE both. 10man players however... have no comparison.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2012-12-15 at 07:44 PM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    I feel like rets struggling to keep up on single target only fights are just not playing aggresive enough or wasting reduction on the GCD by being to slow.

    also IDK what prio system you guys do but during wings i dump a TV every 3 holy power unless the 4th hp is from exo then i dump TV after HoW at 5 cap.
    It's alright. And yeah, that's what I figured is optimal as well during Sanctified Wrath.

    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    1. Very strong single, average aoe
    2. Burst, % Damage taken bosses, scaling, only weakness is aoe and having to hold back cooldowns it cripples you
    Yeah.. and it pisses me off how simple some other specs' AOE is. Windwalker Monks just spam Spinning Crane Kick and do more.

    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    5. Ret scales absurd with mastery, haste, and weapon damage
    Not sure if that's the case compared to other DPS.. especially Fury Warriors.

    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    6. We don't need any fixes, just seal of rightiouness buffed 250% to buff our aoe and to make the seal not worthless.
    If they buffed SoR to 10% and increased Divine Storm damage to 115% I think we'd be fine.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    It's alright. And yeah, that's what I figured is optimal as well during Sanctified Wrath.


    Yeah.. and it pisses me off how simple some other specs' AOE is. Windwalker Monks just spam Spinning Crane Kick and do more.


    Not sure if that's the case compared to other DPS.. especially Fury Warriors.


    If they buffed SoR to 10% and increased Divine Storm damage to 115% I think we'd be fine.
    I'd rather SoR actually worth swapping to multi target then Dstorm buffed. Storm is already better on 2/3 targets.
    250% too much how bout 20% weapon damage flat spread. and procs off dstorm.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    just seal of rightiouness buffed 250% to buff our aoe and to make the seal not worthless.
    I hate Righteousness at this point, complete garbage, even if I want to AoE 20 mobs for daily quests I go Insight because it's a Seal that actually works and helps.

    There's (I think) 2 places in the entire expansion it can see some use... 2nd pull of Trash in MV, becomes utterly useless after 8 seconds due to AE protection (Hunters and DKs laugh and roll their D***s on they keyboard at this) ..and about 3-4 pulls in HoF (the weak packs without aggro table).

    I wish they'd just remove it from the game, it feels outdated and unnatural.

    Instead allow for HotR to spread/refresh Censure, it would make the Seal consistent with how Insight and Justice operate and buff our 2nd hand AoE without messing or re-scaling any other abilities.

    As powerful as a 'Censure Spread' could be, so was Serpent Sting with Serpent Spread, and still they doubled it's damage out of nowhere.
    Last edited by Veliane; 2012-12-15 at 09:54 PM.

  11. #31
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    The main reason why ret paladins are doing "good" overall in this tier is because of all the gimmick fight have increased damage done or taken by a % which makes our mastery double dip. Take away that and ret will fall flat, I can't guarantee it but my gut feeling is that ret is going to need a massive buff when the next tier comes.
    First of all our 4set bonus is a major reason to ret's "power" atm, unless things change I see myself wearing T14 4set for the majority of T15 whenever that comes... espeacially with the valor itemlevel upgrades...
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  12. #32
    Herald of the Titans icausewipes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    I feel like rets struggling to keep up on single target only fights are just not playing aggresive enough or wasting reduction on the GCD by being to slow.

    also IDK what prio system you guys do but during wings i dump a TV every 3 holy power unless the 4th hp is from exo then i dump TV after HoW at 5 cap.


    1. Very strong single, average aoe
    2. Burst, % Damage taken bosses, scaling, only weakness is aoe and having to hold back cooldowns it cripples you
    3. If you aren't gcd capped you are doing it wrong or hitting things too slow
    4. Cooldown stacking, Keeping yourself on the GCD not wasting .1 sec by not using AHK
    5. Ret scales absurd with mastery, haste, and weapon damage
    6. We don't need any fixes, just seal of rightiouness buffed 250% to buff our aoe and to make the seal not worthless.

    would you mind posting your armory so i can get an idea what to shoot for? also what do you mean by AHK?

  13. #33
    While we're here. Is sanct wrath definitely the one to shoot for? I'm rather enjoy HA in that tier. Wrath + HA requires about 5 secs delay on wrath to line up and the 2 together seems very strong.
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by mercutiouk View Post
    While we're here. Is sanct wrath definitely the one to shoot for? I'm rather enjoy HA in that tier. Wrath + HA requires about 5 secs delay on wrath to line up and the 2 together seems very strong.
    With the nerf to 4pc I believe they are quite equal and down to personal preference. I prefer SW since:
    1. One less keybind. This ties into the hassle of having to Wings+ ES , then use HA. A lot of fatfingering and latency could happen here. On the other hand with SW I just use ES instead of a filler between hammers. Usually that brings me down 1 hp so I'll be using TV@ 4HP sometimes for the duration of SW.
    2. No timer worries with Guardian.
    3. If shit happens and I need to get out of melee range during cooldowns I don't suffer the same way I would with HA. Contrary , I can still throw hammers like a boss in between judgment or exo. I feel like a range machine gun at times .
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Also don't judge 25heroic if you can't even do them since you're stuck in 10man. I can actually run both when we don't have time to finish MSV or HoF from 25 progression and 10man is laughable in comparison. Not 10 man bashing but my experience is that it is infact easier because i have actually DONE both. 10man players however... have no comparison.
    We've argued about this before so I'll start by saying that I respect you a lot for the work you've put down on improving Ret in practice and for have shared your observations to keep the theorycrafting alive here.

    But why do you, who are playing in a semi-hardcore guild (that reaches the heroics fights either ovegeared or after couple of small yet relevant nerfs), have to comment on a raid format that you haven't played yourself? How can you make such a strong opinion about something you don't really know enough about? Even high level guilds competing for world firsts have stopped comparing 10/25 because it's impossible, even for them, to make a fair estimaton of everything required of the encounters when they're progressing on them.



    I have something to add to the actual discussion here.

    I think we all can agree that Ret does good on fights where we can stay glued on the same target. However I see no argument for it beating other melee classes when theres cleaving, AoE or just target siwtching. Now if we move on to comparing to the ranged classes that beat Ret on single target already and compare how they can instantly switch to adds as well as provide better damage I just can't agree that we are that good and useful at all this tier.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    I have something to add to the actual discussion here.

    I think we all can agree that Ret does good on fights where we can stay glued on the same target. However I see no argument for it beating other melee classes when theres cleaving, AoE or just target siwtching. Now if we move on to comparing to the ranged classes that beat Ret on single target already and compare how they can instantly switch to adds as well as provide better damage I just can't agree that we are that good and useful at all this tier.
    Some good and true words, Bonkura. Thank you.

  17. #37
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    The main reason why ret paladins are doing "good" overall in this tier is because of all the gimmick fight have increased damage done or taken by a % which makes our mastery double dip. Take away that and ret will fall flat, I can't guarantee it but my gut feeling is that ret is going to need a massive buff when the next tier comes.
    First of all our 4set bonus is a major reason to ret's "power" atm, unless things change I see myself wearing T14 4set for the majority of T15 whenever that comes... espeacially with the valor itemlevel upgrades...
    Idk I was top 3 single target damage into empress Heroic25 but fell somewhat behind each add phase. Also the RNG on if your add pile are the ones fixating away or if you fixate. Ret is nowhere near poor for single target damage atall. Gimmic fights dont count because if you aren't destroying #1 on the target taking the increased damage you are playing badly AND wrong.

    Bonkura considering I've been playing the class and raiding before you even knew about the game I'd rather you not speak for me when you simply have no goddamn idea half the time and just make excuses for mediocre retribution play. I do know how raiding at a world first level goes because I've done it. Requital has done it. Tons of goddamn rets have done it. And in the end it's the same thing. Time investment, there you go. That is the difference between rank 1 and rank 30 region guilds. Time

    Hopefully one day you can gain enough experience in ret to where I'll throw my views and facts on the class away and take advice and opinions from people who make excuses for poor play. Problem is i'd have to stop playing Retribution to let anyone else become the authority on it which isn't really something I'm planning anytime until maybe Tier 20. Shucks!
    Last edited by anaxie; 2012-12-16 at 07:37 PM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Idk I was top 3 single target damage into empress Heroic25 but fell somewhat behind each add phase. Also the RNG on if your add pile are the ones fixating away or if you fixate. Ret is nowhere near poor for single target damage atall. Gimmic fights dont count because if you aren't destroying #1 on the target taking the increased damage you are playing badly AND wrong.

    Bonkura considering I've been playing the class and raiding before you even knew about the game I'd rather you not speak for me when you simply have no goddamn idea half the time and just make excuses for mediocre retribution play. I do know how raiding at a world first level goes because I've done it. Requital has done it. Tons of goddamn rets have done it. And in the end it's the same thing. Time investment, there you go. That is the difference between rank 1 and rank 30 region guilds. Time

    Hopefully one day you can gain enough experience in ret to where I'll throw my views and facts on the class away and take advice and opinions from people who make excuses for poor play. Problem is i'd have to stop playing Retribution to let anyone else become the authority on it which isn't really something I'm planning anytime until maybe Tier 20. Shucks!
    You totally missed his point, it's so much more than time. It's dedication, it's class stacking, it's pulling out all the stops. Something your guild doesn't do. It doesn't matter if you're the best paladin in the world, if a warrior or dk is going to do more dps than you will, you're benched unless you fill a niche roll. There's not oh paint tiles because his cleave sucks, it's replace him and get a ranged to paint tiles. BL sat several mains over the course of this tier for alts and long time retired raiders, they'll even take friends if they are the right class. That's in 25m too where class differences are less obvious.


    It's at that level of play his concerns are valid. Hell, it's not even that level of play that it's like that. It's any guild with aspirations of top ranks. It doesn't matter how good you are if your raid leaders philosophy is to optimize his raid for success at any cost. Since you can bet there's somebody just like you or better that plays that ideal class.

    So what I'm saying is it doesn't matter what YOU think of ret even if you're the "authority on ret". It's what those raid leaders see on the meters for that role. They don't care about rank #1 ret paladin in the world when they could get rank 50 frost dk and do better.
    Last edited by Riptide; 2012-12-16 at 08:43 PM.

  19. #39
    Everytime Anaxie posts an epic rant I get the biggest nerd boner ever.

  20. #40
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    Okay, since folks prefer to bicker back and forth, I'll be closing this.

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