Who is the real Champion of Tier 14?

[Dubalicious]

i think it actually is pretty "classless" as u put it to shamelessly selfpromote urself claiming ur the best witch can easily be argued to be untrue by opening one page http://www.wowprogress.com/ ( i dont care whos 25man whos 10man all the same s**t)

Self promote? Again, they are being interviewed for an article specifically acknowledging them as World First H Sha 25 man.

wowprogress uses arbitrary numbers to rank guilds. wowprogress is just another opinion, much like yours and mine.

Heroic Sha 10 and Heroic Sha 25 are *not* the same boss.

[PBitt]

Both guilds are really, really good, obviously. I'll give my edge to Paragon as they did do it all first and they were first for a lot of 25 man stuff as well when they were a 25 man guild.

[Deleted]

Self promote? Again, they are being interviewed for an article specifically acknowledging them as World First H Sha 25 man.

wowprogress uses arbitrary numbers to rank guilds. wowprogress is just another opinion, much like yours and mine.

Heroic Sha 10 and Heroic Sha 25 are *not* the same boss.

ok i even went back to see.
Q:At the top again, how do you feel about the entire thing, both this tier in particular and throughout the history of the guild?
A:We're all happy to be at the number 1 spot now
"at the top again" and "we´re number 1 spot" arent exactly the same thing saying ur number one spot is self promoting yes

[Deleted]

Paragon would have have never acknowledged or given credit to the top 10 man guild (granted, there's never been a "Paragon of 10 man raiding" until this tier). Regardless, my opinion is that the 25 man race is the real race. I do greatly appreciate what Paragon has done and they are, obviously, still arguably one of the best guilds in the world.

What would have Method done had a random 10man guild killed Sha first? They aren't able to disregard Paragon because of their history as the top guild.

I voted for Paragon, as the devs said the gap between 10 and 25 is really small if it even exists at all.

[Sinndra]

good i got some world first because of beta.

beta's have never counted.. its the scrimmage of Raids. even though 25 man is easier, then 10 man.. its always been looked at as the more difficult raid. more people = more of an encounter? but also more room for error. 10 mans are very unforgiving in that sense. until people realize and acknowledge this.. 10 man will never be looked at as equal to 25 man. even though thats what Blizzard is trying to accomplish. they want the raids to be equal so the players can pick which size they like more. by default.. Method is the winner of this tier.

[Deleted]

If this is not a debate 10 vs 25 (which would mean we are not to debate it, i.e. disregard it), as the OP says, then it's obviously Paragon, Method being second and BL third, exactly as WoWprogress, which disregards 25/10, says.

Debate between 10/25 has been done thousand times over, so there's really not a point to it because all the arguments have been said and everyone had their chance to listen to them and pick one or the other side.

The fact, that the kills were so close to each other, only shows that the difficulties were really close this time. You can say that 10man was easier, which would mean Method is the champion, you can say that 25man was easier or they are equal, which would mean Paragon. But because there's no objective measurement of this, everyone will stick to their own opinion. I say Paragon 10 man champion, Method 25 man champion. No overall champions (would be funny if some guild cleared the next tier on both 10man and 25man world firsts, thus becoming the grand champions of the tier, but most likely not gonna happen).

[mordale]

who killed it first still killed it first.
method can enjoy believing they're #1, but believing in something doesn't make it true.

[Dubalicious]

ok i even went back to see.
Q:At the top again, how do you feel about the entire thing, both this tier in particular and throughout the history of the guild?
A:We're all happy to be at the number 1 spot now
"at the top again" and "we´re number 1 spot" arent exactly the same thing saying ur number one spot is self promoting yes

If I said to you, "You are freaking awesome"

and you replied "yeah, I'm pretty awesome" would you seriously consider that gloating?

They're on cloud 9 during this interview. They're in celebration mode. They have every right to be excited and AGAIN, *this is an interview specifically addressing their world first 25 man H Sha kill*

What would have Method done had a random 10man guild killed Sha first? They aren't able to disregard Paragon because of their history as the top guild.

I voted for Paragon, as the devs said the gap between 10 and 25 is really small if it even exists at all.

"What if"? I don't know, couldn't we do "What if"s all day if we wanted to? I see no reason to go into a bunch of hypotheticals when we have an ACTUAL situation right in front of us that we can discuss.

"The devs" say a lot of things. . . The FACT remains - they are notably different raid formats.

even though 25 man is easier, then 10 man

Awww, we we're doing so well until this =/

---------- Post added 2012-12-11 at 11:19 PM ----------

who killed it first still killed it first.
method can enjoy believing they're #1, but believing in something doesn't make it true.

Paragon has yet to kill the same boss Method killed.

Method has yet to kill the same boss Paragon killed.

[stomination]

How to become top guilds.

Raid more than others do.

[Alidori]

World first sha - Paragon
World first 25 man sha - method

No matter how you look at it, Paragon killed it first.

[Ethes]

Sha of Fear as that boss wasn't defeated before it got nerfed and killed both Paragon and Method countless times!

[Xargoth6634]

Paragon got the Sha kill first, so they're #1 for the tier in my book. I really don't care about 10 vs. 25.

[dgreen]

I would have said Paragon, but like someone else pointed out they basically said last tier that 10's don't count. They can't have it both ways just because it's currently more convenient for them.

[Dubalicious]

World first sha - Paragon
World first 25 man sha - method

No matter how you look at it, Paragon killed it first.

I feel like others have said the same thing, but somehow you make it sound better haha

However, the question presented by the OP is "Who is the real champion of Tier 14?", not "who killed sha first?" I think it's much more open to bringing your opinion/thoughts/feelings into it =)

[Alidori]

I feel like others have said the same thing, but somehow you make it sound better haha

However, the question presented by the OP is "Who is the real champion of Tier 14?", not "who killed sha first?" I think it's much more open to bringing your opinion/thoughts/feelings into it =)

The real champion of Tier 14 is the one who killed it first. Paragon.

[Roscoe]

Paragon has yet to kill the same boss Method killed.

Method has yet to kill the same boss Paragon killed.

Are you stupid? The Sha of Fear is one boss, one entity, same difficulty.

[Hyrican]

The champions are the first 50-100 guilds killing it without doing twink runs for more gear. Everyone else is getting ahead with "clever use of game mechanics" and periliously close to exploiting by gear funneling.

And BL Method and Paragon are guilty of those twink runs. Many others close behind too. This upsets me more than the comparison 25/10. You should not be able to do multiple runs with more people and then build your raidgrp only with pushed characters gearwise. At least not when you want to be considered "hardcore" and "skillfull".

[dakalro]

The champions are the first 50-100 guilds killing it without doing twink runs for more gear. Everyone else is getting ahead with "clever use of game mechanics" and periliously close to exploiting by gear funneling.

And BL Method and Paragon are guilty of those twink runs. Many others close behind too. This upsets me more than the comparison 25/10. You should not be able to do multiple runs with more people and then build your raidgrp only with pushed characters gearwise. At least not when you want to be considered "hardcore" and "skillfull".

You do realize the simple fact that you take 1-10 more resets to kill it gives you a ton more gear? With 15 bosses to kill every week?

And on the topic of champion, it's Method. Paragon has yet to actually be challenged by any 10 man guild, nobody is even close. BL and Method actually had to race against someone.

[Hyrican]

You do realize the simple fact that you take 1-10 more resets to kill it gives you a ton more gear? With 15 bosses to kill every week?

And on the topic of champion, it's Method. Paragon has yet to actually be challenged by any 10 man guild, nobody is even close. BL and Method actually had to race against someone.

I agree with you, but with every week all raidgrps get a new set of bosses and would be exactly on the same equal standing (10s a little bit more rng than 25).

Twinkruns are extra loot rolls for a select few in a twinkrun and then you pick the best players with the best gear for the real raidgrp, and that is like 25man gear in 10man raids during wrath.

So yes it is normal that a raidgp gets stronger each reset, but the "world first" contenders use the game mechanics that allow this kind of behaviour with gear funneling. And Paragon brought this behaviour to 10man raidgrps, where this gear funneling is much less common. (Granted, overall the amount of guilds doing multiple twinkruns for gear funneling is pretty small)

Champions with equal footing is not possible with rng loot and different raid setups even in the same raidsize, but abusing game mechanics to doule or triple the amount of gear received each week does not surmount to the the better raidgrp in my opinion, and it gets to the point where the ilvl advantage is to big an advantage.

[Squirl]

Method forever second. Can't ignore Paragon's World Firsts even if it was on 10man.