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  1. #201
    Brewmaster Xl House lX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SourceOfInfection View Post
    Is there anyone else who just reads threads like this and watches people go up in arms over imaginary politics of a fantasy land like it's not all made up by a small team of people who predetermine every outcome?
    I do, but man sometimes people get way to caught up in this shit. Like, its just a game. If people want to treat a video game more than just a video game, fine let that be their goal, but these arguments just get to the point of being silly really quick.
    Call me House.

  2. #202
    Herald of the Titans theredviola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    Please point out where the Alliance used a biological agent on a joint military effort, blitzkrieged into Horde land murdering their citizenry to steal its resources after the Cataclysm devastated the nation, gassed a Horde city with a toxic agent so heavily no one could live there then slaughtered and raised anyone who fled the devastation as undead minions, buried horde prisoners up to their necks in filth then bashed their skulls open with a shovel, invaded an entire sovereign nation and destroyed in outright simply because they had a grudge against them, and nuked an entire city while using their own troops and cannon fodder distraction to make sure everyone was sealed inside the city walls when it was nuked for maximum body count?

    Oh wait, they've never done that. Ever. Read up your lore please.
    Right, because using an entire race as canon fodder is completely acceptable. Forgot that some races just aren't as useful as others.
    "Do not only practice your art, but force yourself into its secrets, for it and knowledge can raise men to the divine." -- Ludwig Van Beethoven

  3. #203
    As the words of one of our great Generals war is hell and it cant be any clearer.

  4. #204
    Brewmaster Xothic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rowaasr13 View Post
    Woo-hoo! Get a load of this: I've just got extremely interested about this quote on wowpedia about "massacre" and decided to explore history of user who edited it in. He's been going all around wiki and posting "massacre" shit everywhere, while removing any traces of Alliance side of those quests and Hawthorne's orders to let civilians pass.

    Check this out:
    http://www.wowpedia.org/index.php?ti...&oldid=2701748
    http://www.wowpedia.org/index.php?ti...&oldid=2799695
    http://www.wowpedia.org/index.php?ti...&oldid=2693343
    http://www.wowpedia.org/index.php?ti...&oldid=2691360 (seems to be reverted)

    He also whitewashes undead:
    http://www.wowpedia.org/index.php?ti...&oldid=2798767

    Downplays Drek'thar reaction:
    http://www.wowpedia.org/index.php?ti...&oldid=2691361

    Time to get in contact with some WP admins.
    Jesus you're nuts.
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    Taco dinner, movie at my mancave then I'll surprise her with a TCG tabard and tell her I love her.
    Xothic - Prot Paladin - Expired at the end of 5.1, returned start of 5.4, left again. Bleh.

  5. #205
    Stood in the Fire Maleagant's Avatar
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    Sunreavers made a choice to help Garrosh.Now they will have answer for there crimes.

    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things.
    The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse
    ."
    -John Stuart Mill

  6. #206
    Since we all know that garrosh is going to be some sort of sha-infested superbaddie at the end of pandaria, I'd like to tell you a few things about The Horde.


    The current horde which is lead by garrosh, is verily wrong in pretty much everything, the horde is being led like a warmachine, which it is not supposed to be. Garrosh is singlehandledly breaking the horde, the Taurens, Trolls, Forsaken pretty much want nothing to do with "garrosh's horde". the only reason the blood elves support him is because they are pretty much forced to.
    " If you cannot amaze people with your intelligence, confuse them with your bullshit. "
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  7. #207
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frinata View Post
    You guys ARE aware that Varian got pissed at Jaina for what she did? That perhaps the Sunreavers weren't directly responsible? It could of been the Blood elves (not the ones directly in Dalaran) who did it, and everyone just assumed it was the Sunreavers because of it.
    TAKE A LOOK..ITS IN A BOOK... A reading rainbowww (or in this case blizzard lore affecting the game not explained well in game but in the last book that was released...)

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by DocQuantum View Post
    Oh look, yet another "[insert my faction] are the good guys; [insert other faction] are the bad guys" thread.
    Oh look, yet another "[insert my faction] is not bad, BOTH are bad" response. Well, facts say otherwise. You're welcome to list atrocities of Alliance though.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-13 at 12:06 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by WiseGnomE View Post
    Since we all know that garrosh is going to be some sort of sha-infested superbaddie at the end of pandaria, I'd like to tell you a few things about The Horde.
    I didn't see anything about "sha-infested" and, honestly, I prefer to fight against his own will, not to cheapen victory with some "oh, but he was controlled" shit.

  9. #209
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rowaasr13 View Post
    Oh look, yet another "[insert my faction] is not bad, BOTH are bad" response. Well, facts say otherwise. You're welcome to list atrocities of Alliance though.[COLOR="red"]
    The list is very short, but there were a few instances

    The near genocide on Kael and his men
    Daelins invasion, with the goal to wipe out the Orcs, which reignited old hatreds.
    The full extermination of the Shatterspear tribe
    Taurajo

    Those are the only noteworthy ones, the horde committed significantly more atrocities.

    The Alliance is morally more akin to our modern standards, though they are hardly the epitome of good.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Xenosege View Post
    Anasterian hated the Alliance, regretted teaching humans magic to begin with, and was the reason the alliance of Lordaeron disbanded to begin with,.. why would he be proud of it joining the alliance again? what troll logic is this? >_>
    Can you cite exactly where Anasterian says directly he hated the Alliance? (of course subjective theories based on unfounded facts barely related with Anasterian himself are not valid).

    Also remember that Anasterian had no absolute control of the elven society: the king was subject by the Council of Silvermoon, where there was already a large group of radical elves too selfish and proud to trust in other "lesser" races (those would later proclaim themselves as Sin'dorei). It was these radical elves who urged the king to limit the relations with humans.

    In fact, what it is registered are the numerous cordial meetings which Anasterian himself kept with the ancestors of King Terenas, most likely indicating a relationship of friendship between the two nations. Moreover, the state of Dalaran is the physical and living proof that humans and high elves are bonded amicably for generations, and that their relationship is not limited to eventual formal alliances of convenience.

    The Alliance disbanded? When? Now is when all the credibility of your words is gone...

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Anaterian loved his people dearly and he thought very little of humans, so I really doubt he would be proud of the high elves.
    Even in the hypothetical case that Anasterian was a racist who hated all other races and especially humans above all, what is certain is that if Anasterian was alive today, he'd be supremely disgusted for the Blood Elves' acts, he would disowned his own son and would be part of Vereesa and the remaining authentic Quel'dorei. He never would ally with orcs, trolls or undead monsters, and of course he had detested everything that has to do with being carried away by the thirst for magic and the vile magic consumption. Do not forget! Anasterian was a Quel'dorei, not a Sin'dorei.

    The Sin'dorei already took hold of Silvermoon, we will not allow them to appropriate also of the Quel'dorei heroes! (That goes for Alleria!)




    In short, do not try to convince people that the high elves and humans got along badly.

    Of course they would have their conflicts, but what has always prevailed between humans and high elves has been the good understanding and good relations.

    You, supporters of the traitors blood elves, cannot deny the evidence of the passage of time: the past of humans and high elves are tied, in particular through the Alliance itself.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    You, supporters of the traitors blood elves, cannot deny the evidence of the passage of time: the past of humans and high elves are tied, in particular through the Alliance itself.
    They are tied even in future, they will occupy same spots as ashes.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Salarius View Post
    Isn't theramore vengance for Camp Tuaranjo. I mean I know barrens quests have the guy who ordered the attack hung up but think about it. The news has to follow the chain of command to get to Garrosh so it would come kinda late and no doubt he would use it as an excuse to go apeshit. I mean Tuaanjo wasnt military and technically Theramore isle wasnt a legitimate target either. Kinda like Garrosh was upping the ante.
    Oh please not this whole Camp Taurajo BS again. Camp Taurajo was tame, absolutely tame compared to the stuff we did while questing. Compared to most of the crimes we comitted Camp Taurajo was nothing to get even agitated because of. Just think about Silverwing Refuge alone, the Alliance actually tried to let the inhabitants of Taurajo escape but they fell prey to the wildlife, the Orcs just murdered everyone at Silverwind Refuge.

    Same for about a dozen other places where often we as Horde players simply waltzed through killing everything. Remember that quest where we destroyed Nijel's point? Killing civilians is actually part of the quest.

    On topic. Purge of Dalaran was justified and right. The Sunreavers haven't betrayed the Kirintor only once but several times so far and can't be trusted. You don't let such an organization exist that actively work against you in times of war and fight for pure survival. The Americans wouldn't have accepted Nazi organizations during WW II in the US either, especially not if those actively harmed them over and over again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trogdora View Post
    On topic: My view is basically: The Alliance has done bad shit, the Horde has done bad shit. Both have flaws they need to work on. Arguing who has more 'flaws' as has been put is like getting into trouble and crying out, "But he started it!", it doesn't matter cause both have done bad things.
    It does matter, it does matter a big deal. Who started it, who did what to what extend and how much of it is of great importance. By your logic the Allies would've been just as bad as the Axis. What you're doing is making up excuses for war criminals and some of the world worst slaughterers to have ever lived.
    There's a difference between stealing candy and murdering a granny in cold blood just for the heck of it. Both of those have done wrong, would you argue that both should receive the same kind of punishment. Especially if the former has only done so once or twice while the second one is a serial killer?

    Making distinctions IS important, it DOES matter.
    Last edited by Deleth; 2012-12-12 at 08:29 PM.

  13. #213
    Scarab Lord MasterOfKnees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleagant View Post
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things.
    The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse
    ."
    -John Stuart Mill
    If you ask me, that quote is utter bullshit and comes from a madman. I mean, jeez, just read it. So war is worth something? Seriously, what is worth having a war for? If the first war hadn't started there wouldn't ever be a war, it's that ironic. This quote goes down along with Dave Mustaine quotes like "Barack Obama plans the mass shootings to get rid of guns."

  14. #214
    Stood in the Fire Number Eighteen's Avatar
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    Wow, some of you people really turn this into an all-out hate debate towards the Blood Elves...

    To begin with, only a SINGLE Sunreaver chose to put his loyalties to Garrosh over the Kirin Tor. Thalen Songweaver (or something along those lines). This 'Sunreaver' is the real traitor, considering he was spying in Theramore, claiming to be neutral while actually acting as the eyes of Hellscream.

    Aethas Sunreaver fought so hard to get the Sin'dorei their place back in the Kirin Tor, why would he throw it all away? He believes in neutrality, besides - didn't members of the Kirin Tor, such as Rhonin go to Theramore to discuss matters regarding the HORDE having taken the Focusing Iris? Yeah, so much for neutrality. BURN THE WITCH(ES).

    If you looked past your OWN side for a change, you'd also take a look at the Horde side, which have Aethas respond with the following upon asking him about the progress on behalf of Lor'themar (May be too small of an image, but regardless)



    Speaking of Kael'thas, the psychotic JAINA is the one who accuses HIM of being a traitor to the Kirin Tor - while the Kirin Tor turned a blind eye upon Garithos sentencing the Blood Elves to death, having forced their hand with his own racism.

    Also, while we're on about the Kirin Tor, Rhonin's good for nothing harpy of a wife. Being so compassionate about her homeland, because it involves Amani Trolls - helping Halduron who is by faction Horde. And all of a sudden, she GLADLY joins in in the bloodshed...yeah. The Sunreavers are the bad guys because of one single guy. ALL OF THEM ARE BAD, BURN THEM ALL! ... Again, look at both sides before judging.
    Last edited by Number Eighteen; 2012-12-12 at 08:51 PM.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Moco View Post
    why kill someone who can be your slave? let him do your shit and give him not enough to eat so he cant fight back.

    yeah that was really nice.


    wikipedia:
    "The Random House Dictionary defines the term "concentration camp" as: "a guarded compound for the detention or imprisonment of aliens, members of ethnic minorities, political opponents, etc.", and, the American Heritage Dictionary defines it as: "A camp where civilians, enemy aliens, political prisoners, and sometimes prisoners of war are detained and confined, typically under harsh conditions." "
    Thank you for the definition, however, i was strictly referring to your use of the term concentration camp, that being Nazi.

    And yes, that was MUCH nicer than wiping out the race. How can you not see that?

  16. #216
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    In short, do not try to convince people that the high elves and humans got along badly.

    Of course they would have their conflicts, but what has always prevailed between humans and high elves has been the good understanding and good relations.



    During the Second War, Anasterian was largely unconcerned with the threat of the orcs rampaging through Lordaeron, considering it a problem that could not touch Quel'Thalas and thus not worth the high elves addressing. After the orcs joined forces with the Amani trolls (the Amani themselves ever-eager to see Quel'Thalas burn,) he was approached by Alleria Windrunner, who attempted to open his eyes to the threat. Still reluctant, the high elven king finally changed his tone when Alleria hurled an Amani head at his feet - Anasterian kicking it away and, enraged at the Amani's nerve, ordered the high elven warriors and rangers to crush them once and for all.

    The high elves came to realize that the increasingly strained Alliance needed them far more than they needed it, and after a period of mutual coldness between the humans and their elven allies,[6] Anasterian resolved to officially secede his nation.

    In the aftermath of the war, the high elves as a whole began to doubt the value of the Alliance. Humanity seemed to need the high elves, but had little to offer in return, especially now that a large portion of Alliance resources was allotted toward maintaining the internment camps.

    At last Anasterian rescinded the high elves' allegiance to the Alliance. He stated that the humans' poor leadership had been directly responsible for the burned forests in the borderlands of Quel'Thalas.


    You, supporters of the traitors blood elves, cannot deny the evidence of the passage of time: the past of humans and high elves are tied, in particular through the Alliance itself.
    The elves were tied to Dalaran and Dalaran alone the other human Kingdoms were of very little interest to them.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2012-12-12 at 08:55 PM.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Solonar View Post
    Wow, some of you people really turn this into an all-out hate debate towards the Blood Elves...

    To begin with, only a SINGLE Sunreaver chose to put his loyalties to Garrosh over the Kirin Tor. Thalen Songweaver (or something along those lines). This 'Sunreaver' is the real traitor, considering he was spying in Theramore, claiming to be neutral while actually acting as the eyes of Hellscream.

    Aethas Sunreaver fought so hard to get the Sin'dorei their place back in the Kirin Tor, why would he throw it all away? He believes in neutrality, besides - didn't members of the Kirin Tor, such as Rhonin go to Theramore to discuss matters regarding the HORDE having taken the Focusing Iris? Yeah, so much for neutrality. BURN THE WITCH(ES).
    One of the most biased posts I've ever seen, most isn't even worth commenting on however you have quite a few misconceptions here.

    Kirin Tor and neutrality, the Kirin Tor always have been a human kingdom albeit one with a fairly strong elven presence. The only really were neutral because of the nexus and lich king war. Even before that forsaken are hunting and killing them in silverpine forrest. After all of this ended the forsaken once more start to attack the Kirin Tor in Silverpine forrest and harm their efforts.

    Later the Horde attacks the blut dragon flight and the Kirin Tor to steal the iris and turn it onto Theramore. A feat they're aided with by the Sunreavers.

    The Kirin Tor for the longest time haven't claimed to be truly neutral, in fact seeing how the Horde never stopped their attacks on them doing so would be dumb. The problem stems from the Sunreavers being a part of the Kirin Tor who is under attack by the Horde and rather Alliance aligned working both against the Kirin Tor and the Alliance aiding the Horde in their war of extinction.

  18. #218
    Mechagnome
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    Well this is war and war isn't fair even though their are unwritten rules that you just don't break because it causes the future of the winner to look evil but to be fair about it this what Garrosh deserves and anyone stupid enough to follow his madness, the sunreavers where fools to let Garrosh use them to fight dirty...this will make it even sweeter when we dethrone his puny headed orc ass from the Horde

  19. #219
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post

    Later the Horde attacks the blut dragon flight and the Kirin Tor to steal the iris and turn it onto Theramore. A feat they're aided with by the Sunreavers.
    Minor correction the Kirin Tor were never attacked in order to get the focusing Iris. It is unknown if the sunreavers helped to get the iris, though it is hinted some of them build the manabomb, but even that is unknown Silvermoons regular magister could have built it as well.

    Their only direct act of treachery in tides of war, which is evident is Thalen weakening a gate for Garrosh.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2012-12-12 at 08:59 PM.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  20. #220
    High Overlord Kissme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uraga View Post
    ^^ this. The alliance are actually the bad guys (not necessarily in this Garrosh situation) the game just portrays horde as the evil monsters.
    Neither side are bad guys, neither side are good guys. People can do horrible things for good reasons and good things for all the wrong reasons. No sane person goes around thinking they are evil. Even murderers have reasons for what they do. To assume a race or faction is inherently good or evil is to miss the point entirely.

    Or, for a lighter look at it, check out Dark Legacy comic #10 - it kind of approaches the same issue

    http://www.darklegacycomics.com/10.html

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