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  1. #381
    welcome to the game my good sir, ever since WC3 it's wandered into a sort of exploration on morality during wartime. that's not the only thing WoW is about, but it's one of the guiding lights of the story. so yes, both sides so some pretty dark stuff and both sides are pretty evil, they just choose different flavors of evil to indulge in and then dip themselves in their respective flavors of goodness and staunchly proclaim that their good outweighs their evil.

    personally i think the Horde has a slight edge in the good department as most of them (ok maybe the Forsaken don't agree and i don't think the Goblins moralize at all one way or the other) consider many of the things they've done and do to be evil but try to atone. the alliance overarching seems compelling to stick to a "the ends justify the means" mantra and carry on.

    so yes, what you did is pretty atrocious. it's not the first, nor the last, nor even the worst thing your character or faction will do in WoW. the Horde isn't any better(expect maybe subjectively) nor are they any worse (again expect maybe subjectively). you will both continue doing evil things to each other and then try to parade how good you are (maybe you save an orphan dog kennel from burning down. i don't know. earlier that day you were burning down some weird building filled with wolf pups so they wouldn't grow up to help the Horde...all in a days' labor)

    it's one of them circular thingies...what are they called?
    “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”

    Quote Originally Posted by BatteredRose View Post
    They're greedy soulless monsters for not handing me everything for my 15 moneys a month!

  2. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by Albert the fish View Post
    it's one of them circular thingies...what are they called?
    Circles?
    ?

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    Hilarious video, but the whole quip about "they would have been perfect for each other" is just silly. Arthas didn't walk through Stratholme saying "surrender or die." He just killed. Jaina said "you have betrayed this city and its people, surrender or die" and killed those that put up a fight.
    And killed those trying to flee, while disabling their means of fleeing.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  4. #384
    this is how i see the horde.....with garrosh? total chaos infact after doing both the panda quest line for the hore and allaince...hordes version of faction acceptance Ji firepaw more than once seemed like he was about to run for his life, and was getting insulted almost the entire time... thralls horde seems more about honor and courage and was so inspiring he made all the races feel at home...allaince? pandas show up..you brawl the king..your in the alliance...they accept all..what im saying here is...horde have fallen to evil under there new warchief and you eed to be purged from not only dalaran the world...or get thrall back..so sad...i used to love the horde..
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  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Daelin Proudmoore View Post
    I can't believe after seeing what Jaina did, people can still call her sane. She walked right into the Violet Hold, killed Aethas's bodyguards, (where was their choice to surrender?) and then locked Aethas up because he said that it was "our city too". They killed the shopkeepers who didn't know why the Sunreavers were being exiled. They even seized all the Sunreaver's possessions they had in the banks.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Sunreavers should be trained as Spellbreakers to combat the archmages of Dalaran. It'll keep Aethas relevant since his only role was member of the Six.
    Their choice for 'surrender or leave' was already given to them previously of the player's arrival at Dalaran for the purge. Jaina did issue a warning to all non-Kirin Tor elves (namely the shopkeepers): allign yourself with the Kirin Tor and/or Silver Covenant or leave Dalaran. For the Sunreavers. the warning was: surrender or be imprisoned.

    When the player arrived, the warning was already issued, time for the 'surrender or leave' part of the warning was given, and it was now time for the 'imprisoned or death if resisting'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    As Yriel put is more finely, you cannot hold an entire group of people responsible for the actions of a few, especially when so many of that group has nothing to do with it.
    You can, if said 'entire group of people' fails to uphold their end of the neutrality agreement, and fails to bring to justice the members of their groups that broke said agreement not only once, but twice.

    Even when hell broke loose in Dalaran and the purging began, the Sunreavers did nothing to help themselves. Said spies are still at large, no investigation is done, even after most Sunreavers escape Dalaran. And when you finish the Horde quest chain, you find the Divine Bell in Silvermoon! So yes, the Sunreavers already had prior knowledge of said spies, if the presence of the Divine Bell in Sivlermoon is proof enough, and did nothing. So, yes, they brought it upon themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Daelin Proudmoore View Post
    She didn't try to stay neutral. By sealing off Darnassus to stop Garrosh from getting the Divine Bell, she was no longer acting as a neutral entity.

    She really gave Aethas's guards a choice to leave or surrender, huh? From what I saw, she imprisoned Aethas for arguing with her and then had a Sunreaver magister killed when he went to the bank to gather his goods and escape.

    This is what I found on Wowpedia, "In the aftermath of the conflict, the Sunreavers come to hold Garrosh (whose agents in the organization led to the purge to begin with) just as responsible for their removal from Dalaran as Jaina herself."
    Go read up some lore, ok? She locked up Dalaran AFTER, I'll repeat, AFTER she was backstabbed by the Sunreavers. She locked Darnassus AFTER the Sunreavers already used Dalaran portals to invade Darnassus and steal the Bell. When she sealed Darnassus, the Bell was ALREADY stolen. There was no intention to stop the robbers, but to find who did it.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2012-12-30 at 03:29 PM.

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  6. #386
    Over 9000! Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post

    When the player arrived, the warning was already issued, time for the 'surrender or leave' part of the warning was given, and it was now time for the 'imprisoned or death if resisting'.
    That is not true, if you had done both sides you would know that. Not everyone was warned and Jaina killed several elves before she told Aethas to leave.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruud View Post
    Maybe YOU killed fleeing and frightened elves. I left them alone, and only killed the quest mobs, who are traitors who tried to make the Kirin Tor work for the Horde, and are here to kill me and all other alliance.
    Still hope we get to put down Jaina though, she has become the Alliance's Garrosh.
    Yes I DID kill them and it was my pleasure.. It's ashame there were no orcs or horde calves to slaughter as well.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-30 at 10:26 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    And killed those trying to flee, while disabling their means of fleeing.
    It was sweet. Man gives other man choices in war, animals - they are better just put down.

  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    That is not true, if you had done both sides you would know that. Not everyone was warned and Jaina killed several elves before she told Aethas to leave.
    The Sunreavers were already under warning after the Theramore incident. And Jaina killed only Aethas' bodyguards. The rest she just teleported into the Violed Hold.

    And now, this gem...

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Daelin Proudmoore View Post
    Jaina broke neutrality first. I'll keep repeating that if I have to.
    I love your reasoning: Sunreavers steal powerful artifact from the Kirin Tor, a neutral faction, under orders from Garrosh, the Horde leader: neutrality maintained! The Sunreavers use Dalaran portals to invade Alliance city to steal a powerful artifact, again under orders from Garrosh, the Horde leader: neutrality maintained! Jaina investigates who used Dalaran resources to steal the artifact from Darnassus: ZOMG! Neutrality broken! Jaina broke neutrality first! The Horde is totally justified! Blah-blah-blah... Seriously?

    In your words: I'll keep repeating this if I have to.

    And I really don't mean to offend you, Daelin, but, despite your name, and avatar icon... you're really sounding like a Horde Fanboy, here...

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  9. #389
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You can, if said 'entire group of people' fails to uphold their end of the neutrality agreement, and fails to bring to justice the members of their groups that broke said agreement not only once, but twice.
    1. Dalaran broke neutrality when they sent military forces to help the Alliance fight the Horde at Theramore.
    2. Because it's so easy to catch spies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Even when hell broke loose in Dalaran and the purging began, the Sunreavers did nothing to help themselves. Said spies are still at large, no investigation is done, even after most Sunreavers escape Dalaran. And when you finish the Horde quest chain, you find the Divine Bell in Silvermoon! So yes, the Sunreavers already had prior knowledge of said spies, if the presence of the Divine Bell in Sivlermoon is proof enough, and did nothing. So, yes, they brought it upon themselves.
    Yup, people come busting into my house to arrest me for no reason. I totally have time to investigate spies while I'm running for my life.

    It's a good thing they hung this WMD out in the middle of the square in Silvermoon for all the children to see.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  10. #390
    Over 9000! Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The Sunreavers were already under warning after the Theramore incident. And Jaina killed only Aethas' bodyguards. The rest she just teleported into the Violed Hold.
    They were not under the threat of expulsion, Aethas said he would try to make things right. So she only killed Aethas bodyguards without any warning, simply because she could, that does not make it right. There were still many Sunreaver who had no idea what was going on. The purge was necessary that much is certain that does not make it right. This is one of those decisions which leaders have to make in order to protect all of their subjects but some of them will suffer for it.

    This entire ordeal is quite similar to the exiled high elves, it was necessary to banish them, but not the right thing to do.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2012-12-30 at 03:51 PM.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkenaw View Post
    There is no more alliance. Blizzard wants us to be the new blue horde cause apparently nobody likes the nice guys.
    Alliance never were nice guys.

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I love your reasoning: Sunreavers steal powerful artifact from the Kirin Tor, a neutral faction, under orders from Garrosh, the Horde leader: neutrality maintained! The Sunreavers use Dalaran portals to invade Alliance city to steal a powerful artifact, again under orders from Garrosh, the Horde leader: neutrality maintained! Jaina investigates who used Dalaran resources to steal the artifact from Darnassus: ZOMG! Neutrality broken! Jaina broke neutrality first! The Horde is totally justified! Blah-blah-blah... Seriously?
    Where was it stated that the Sunreavers stole the Focusing Iris from the Kirin Tor? AFAIK, it was stolen from the Blue Dragonflight by the Horde.

    Also, a vast majority of Sunreavers had nothing to do with stealing the Bell. Aethas has always been loyal to Dalaran and opposed Garrosh.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Where was it stated that the Sunreavers stole the Focusing Iris from the Kirin Tor? AFAIK, it was stolen from the Blue Dragonflight by the Horde.

    Also, a vast majority of Sunreavers had nothing to do with stealing the Bell. Aethas has always been loyal to Dalaran and opposed Garrosh.
    Either Aethas isn't THAT loyal to Dalaran, up to the point of allowing the Horde to use Dalaran portals, or he's not really that competent leader that can't notice their own resources being used without authorization. Seriously, that Bell if eff'ing huge! There is no way they could have moved that with NO ONE in Dalaran noticing it unless the Sunreavers turned a blind eye toward them.

    And then I find this gem...
    Quote Originally Posted by Combooticus View Post
    Jaina broke neutrality by setting up anti rogue traps in darnassus she said that herself her nets she created to stop every half bit rogue to sneak in
    she had a city locked down why did she have a city locked down if her organisation is neutral?

    she got involved her meddling made the other side to meddle had she not meddled then other side needed not to meddle

    the hypocrisy is astounding imo now dont get me wrong she has every right to hate the horde for what they did but please dont tell me she wanted the kirin tor to be neutral and yes i heard that bullshit speech she made to anduin
    Jaina meant every word she said to Anduin. She maintained the neutrality of Kirin Tor. HOWEVER... she only 'meddled' (as Combooticus so eloquently puts it) after the Sunrevers 'meddled' not once, but TWICE already. They 'meddled', then they 'meddled' again, and only THEN Jaina 'meddled'. Please get your facts straight. Also... hypocrisy? That sounds more like what you're doing instead of what Jaina's doing.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2012-12-30 at 04:13 PM.

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  14. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Either Aethas isn't THAT loyal to Dalaran, up to the point of allowing the Horde to use Dalaran portals, or he's not really that competent leader that can't notice their own resources being used without authorization. Seriously, that Bell if eff'ing huge! There is no way they could have moved that with NO ONE in Dalaran noticing it unless the Sunreavers turned a blind eye toward them.
    Portals in Dalaran are used by everyone. You act like it's a controlled substance.

    If the Bell is so conspicuous why didn't anyone else noticed it? Like the humans or the Silver Covenant?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkenaw View Post
    There is no more alliance. Blizzard wants us to be the new blue horde cause apparently nobody likes the nice guys.
    Nice? If not for Varian we wouldn't be in a war in the first place!

  16. #396
    Over 9000! Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eon Drache View Post
    Nice? If not for Varian we wouldn't be in a war in the first place!
    There was a treaty in place after the whole Northrend ordeal, Garrosh declared war this time, by assaulting Ashenvale.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  17. #397
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkenaw View Post
    There is no more alliance. Blizzard wants us to be the new blue horde cause apparently nobody likes the nice guys.
    Well they've been getting their asses handed to them by the Horde so they definitely have to do something. I mean the Horde pretty much dominated Azeroth in Cataclysm.

  18. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Either Aethas isn't THAT loyal to Dalaran, up to the point of allowing the Horde to use Dalaran portals, or he's not really that competent leader that can't notice their own resources being used without authorization. Seriously, that Bell if eff'ing huge! There is no way they could have moved that with NO ONE in Dalaran noticing it unless the Sunreavers turned a blind eye toward them.
    it was a portal from domination point to darnasus. the bell never touched dalaran soil.
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  19. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    it was a portal from domination point to darnasus. the bell never touched dalaran soil.
    Then why on the Alliance quest is a portal to Dalaran found at the end of the trail?

    Did they put it on Domination Point and decide they wanted to go run Ulduar for transmog gear?

  20. #400
    Over 9000! Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Then why on the Alliance quest is a portal to Dalaran found at the end of the trail?

    Did they put it on Domination Point and decide they wanted to go run Ulduar for transmog gear?
    The bell was directly ported to Silvermoon, using the Dalaran portal as a proxy, which is why it points there.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

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