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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    And killed those trying to flee, while disabling their means of fleeing.
    Did the quest on both sides. She only attacks the guards in front of the Sunreaver place in Dalaran, all others she teleports to the Violet Hold. She wasn't the one to disable their means of fleeing either, that was Vereesa who's kind not over her husband dying due to the betrayal of the Sunreavers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    That is not true, if you had done both sides you would know that. Not everyone was warned and Jaina killed several elves before she told Aethas to leave.
    I did the quest on both sides by now, I'd done the same to be honest. You chase the thieves through Darnassus and eventually find an Dalaran portal through which the thieves apparently came and have fled afterwards. You step through it and find yourself in front of Aethas and his bodyguards and a fight between them and Jaina immediatly breaks out.
    The only thing Aethas has to say is that Dalaran is their city aswell, he isn't even denying her accusations and his respond seems more like him saying that if he wants to aid the Horde using Dalaran he very has every right to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    They were not under the threat of expulsion, Aethas said he would try to make things right. So she only killed Aethas bodyguards without any warning, simply because she could, that does not make it right. There were still many Sunreaver who had no idea what was going on. The purge was necessary that much is certain that does not make it right. This is one of those decisions which leaders have to make in order to protect all of their subjects but some of them will suffer for it.

    This entire ordeal is quite similar to the exiled high elves, it was necessary to banish them, but not the right thing to do.
    After having seen how it plays out on the Alliance side I disagree. Aethas and his bodyguards are the ones you find at the end of chasing the thieves through Darnassus. He doesn't even say he's not guilty and instead pretty much trash talks Jainas. He's looking as guilty as possibly and he isn't even denying it.

    It's like the police finding you at the murder scene, with your hands covered in blood, holding the weapon with whom the victims were killed and when asked to lay the weapon down and surrender you tell them to go fuck themselves since you can do whatever you please and your friends charge in to attack them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The bell was directly ported to Silvermoon, using the Dalaran portal as a proxy, which is why it points there.
    Thing is, it was done by the Sunreavers, they did use an Dalaran portal to make it possible, Aethas and his bodyguards were standing in front of said portal and all but confessed it to the crime.

  2. #402
    The Patient Raferis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xzan View Post
    You're actually wrong. 99,9% of the Horde hates Garrosh. If there was a way to set him red there'd be a raid ready to kill him 24/7, eagerly waiting for his each respawn time.
    Fixing this for you; About 20% of the Horde hate Garrosh, because the other 79.9% couldn't give a monkey's toss about the lore, myself not included.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raferis
    Who the hell is so vain that they make one of their own quotes their signature?

  3. #403
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    Did the quest on both sides. She only attacks the guards in front of the Sunreaver place in Dalaran, all others she teleports to the Violet Hold. She wasn't the one to disable their means of fleeing either, that was Vereesa who's kind not over her husband dying due to the betrayal of the Sunreavers.


    I did the quest on both sides by now, I'd done the same to be honest. You chase the thieves through Darnassus and eventually find an Dalaran portal through which the thieves apparently came and have fled afterwards. You step through it and find yourself in front of Aethas and his bodyguards and a fight between them and Jaina immediatly breaks out.
    The only thing Aethas has to say is that Dalaran is their city aswell, he isn't even denying her accusations and his respond seems more like him saying that if he wants to aid the Horde using Dalaran he very has every right to do so.


    After having seen how it plays out on the Alliance side I disagree. Aethas and his bodyguards are the ones you find at the end of chasing the thieves through Darnassus. He doesn't even say he's not guilty and instead pretty much trash talks Jainas. He's looking as guilty as possibly and he isn't even denying it.

    It's like the police finding you at the murder scene, with your hands covered in blood, holding the weapon with whom the victims were killed and when asked to lay the weapon down and surrender you tell them to go fuck themselves since you can do whatever you please and your friends charge in to attack them.


    Thing is, it was done by the Sunreavers, they did use an Dalaran portal to make it possible, Aethas and his bodyguards were standing in front of said portal and all but confessed it to the crime.
    Well then we agree to disagree, since you evidently believe it is fundamentally right to imprison anyone who was a citizen of said nation, that was part of an political party and every member from baker to smith would be imprisoned because a few guys were rotten.

    And considering Aethas prior actions it is very improbable for him to betray the Kirin Tor.

    It is morally wrong, but it was necessary, just like the exile of the high elves.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2012-12-30 at 06:18 PM.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  4. #404
    The Patient Raferis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xothic View Post
    And I respond with a resounding 'so?'

    You are all going to hate me for using a WW2 analogy, but no one gave a shit about all the innocent Japanese killed in Hiroshima, did they?

    And the earthen ring have a lot more to be angry at the horde for then summoning molten giants.
    It's actually quite sad to read that and see how high the players' hopes were for Garrosh at the start of Cata.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raferis
    Who the hell is so vain that they make one of their own quotes their signature?

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Well then we agree to disagree, since you evidently believe it is fundamentally right to imprison anyone who was a citizen of said nation, that was part of an political party and every member from baker to smith would be imprisoned because a few guys were rotten.

    And considering Aethas prior actions it is very improbable for him to betray the Kirin Tor.

    It is morally wrong, but it was necessary, just like the exile of the high elves.
    The Sunreaver are neither an nation nor an ethnicity nor an religious group. They are an organization people join voluntarily. If you were to join an local militia and said militia would start carrying out terrorist acts you can very well expect to be held responsible for joining said militia unless you actually cut your ties. None of those people did.
    They supported the Horde, they supported Aethas and they were support the Sunreavers goals and morals.

    It's like saying people who join the KKK don't exactly know what they're getting themselves into.

  6. #406
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    The Sunreaver are neither an nation nor an ethnicity nor an religious group. They are an organization people join voluntarily. If you were to join an local militia and said militia would start carrying out terrorist acts you can very well expect to be held responsible for joining said militia unless you actually cut your ties. None of those people did.
    They supported the Horde, they supported Aethas and they were support the Sunreavers goals and morals.

    It's like saying people who join the KKK don't exactly know what they're getting themselves into.
    The sunreavers were part of the Kirin tor themselves, they are by all definition citizens of Dalaran. As such subjects to every council member not only Aethas. Many had no idea what was going on as the rest of the city came down onto them. You can't compare the sunreavers to the KKK, the only fitting comparison would be a party like republican or democrat and anyone in that party would be arrested or killed, for simply being a part of it, even though they had no idea what was going on.

    I am in no way arguing that the Sunreavers shouldn't be punished, Jaina did what was necessary, but morally it was wrong since many innocents got caught up in it. That is all.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2012-12-30 at 09:27 PM.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  7. #407
    No, the KKK or an militia are perfectly good things to compare them too, because that's what they are a fifth column inside the Kirin Tor. And those who had to suffer the consequences have only themselves and those who commited them to blame. Themselves for joining such an organization and supporting it despite what happened in Theramore already and the ones who comitted them because they must've known it would fall back on all of them.

  8. #408
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    No, the KKK or an militia are perfectly good things to compare them too, because that's what they are a fifth column inside the Kirin Tor. And those who had to suffer the consequences have only themselves and those who commited them to blame. Themselves for joining such an organization and supporting it despite what happened in Theramore already and the ones who comitted them because they must've known it would fall back on all of them.
    No, it is inaccurate,the Sunreavers were no terrorist organization,not some militia, instead they used to be an essential part of the city. It is morally wrong to hold every last of them responsible for what some of them did. If someone is to blame it is the entire council doing a piss poor job at making sure there are no traitors in their ranks, Aethas isn't solely responsible for the Sunreavers, every council member is, since they were part of The Kirin Tor and as such their subjects and their responsibility.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    No, it is inaccurate,the Sunreavers were no terrorist organization,not some militia, instead they used to be an essential part of the city. It is morally wrong to hold every last of them responsible for what some of them did. If someone is to blame it is the entire council doing a piss poor job at making sure there are no traitors in their ranks, Aethas isn't solely responsible for the Sunreavers, every council member is, since they were part of The Kirin Tor and as such their subjects and their responsibility.
    Plus remember that these actions were taking behind the backs of the ordinary sunreavers, The cook wasnt told they stole something out of darnassus.
    Fact is an entire faction got kicked out and imprisoned ever the actions of a very small clandestine group.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Fact is an entire faction got kicked out and imprisoned ever the actions of a very small clandestine group.
    Don't forget that the action of that small fraction of them was to give someone who wanted to conquer the world an item potentially capable of causing a "plague" paralleling the Scourge.
    Praise the Quest Writers for they give life to otherwise boring expansions.

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Minaa View Post
    I just finished the purge of dalaran quest line and ..... WTF was that ?!!

    this is not what ally do I felt guilty

    when jaina said to me thx hero i found my self answer her : no i am not hero this not hero business

    it's wrong
    Yeah, you are definitely a bad person.

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    Did the quest on both sides. She only attacks the guards in front of the Sunreaver place in Dalaran, all others she teleports to the Violet Hold. She wasn't the one to disable their means of fleeing either, that was Vereesa who's kind not over her husband dying due to the betrayal of the Sunreavers.
    Oh, so now all of a sudden someone is not responsible for the actions of their subordinates? Jaina put Vereesa in charge. Vereesa orders you to kill a Blood Elf trying to flee and kill/disable the dragonhawks.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  13. #413
    im playing as a forsaken and i didnt find any wrong about saving some squishy elves .
    Only 1 bad thing in the Horde version is, when u have to kill one of the High elv grand mage's inside the black market.

    And from a forsaken point of view, the lesser races can kill each others anytime and anywhere, it is good for the Forsakens. ;D

  14. #414
    Mechagnome Zephre's Avatar
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    All this was terrible writing on Blizzards part tbh.

    First she gives some speech about peace in Dalaran
    Second she wards Darnassus thus helping the Alliance.
    Third she throws a hissy fit when the sunreavers help the horde.

    So she's allowed to use resources to help Darnassus and the Alliance but if the Sunreavers do something all of a sudden it's wrong? This is terribad writing on Blizzards part and personally I see this as the death of another female character in WoW, Blizzard would of been letting Richard Knakk write this crap it'd probably be 10,000 times worse but at least it'd probably have dragons + zombie Rhonin saving the day.

    She quoted that the Kirin Tor had a legacy of abuse and she does the same thing tossing out the very same people who taught humans magic in the first place. That right there is sucky gratitude and poor writing at it's finest.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephre View Post
    She quoted that the Kirin Tor had a legacy of abuse and she does the same thing tossing out the very same people who taught humans magic in the first place. That right there is sucky gratitude and poor writing at it's finest.
    She also completely ignores the founding principles of the city by making unilateral decisions with complete disregard for the Council. Being leader of the Council of Six does not afford her any special powers, she is just the figurehead. She has just as much power as any other member of the Council (supposed to).
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by solinari6 View Post
    Circles?
    ?
    Le sigh.
    Cycles, but you get half credit for effort.
    “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”

    Quote Originally Posted by BatteredRose View Post
    They're greedy soulless monsters for not handing me everything for my 15 moneys a month!

  17. #417
    Old God Frozenbeef's Avatar
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    Did the quest today and i was practically shouting "GET OUT OF MY CITY!" to every high elf inside the horde section of dalaran :S

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgarlaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Minaa
    Garrosh is hoard we are ally we are not going down to Garrosh level
    The alliance has gone FAR below garrosh's level for years.
    The quote;

    "Me? I'm dishonest, and a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest. Honestly. It's the honest ones you want to watch out for, because you can never predict when they're going to do something incredibly... stupid. "

    Comes to mind.

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by Xothic View Post
    And I respond with a resounding 'so?'

    You are all going to hate me for using a WW2 analogy, but no one gave a shit about all the innocent Japanese killed in Hiroshima, did they?

    And the earthen ring have a lot more to be angry at the horde for then summoning molten giants.
    that place wasn't Earthen ring's zone but more like Cenarius Circle town aka druid school.

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    No, it is inaccurate,the Sunreavers were no terrorist organization,not some militia, instead they used to be an essential part of the city. It is morally wrong to hold every last of them responsible for what some of them did. If someone is to blame it is the entire council doing a piss poor job at making sure there are no traitors in their ranks, Aethas isn't solely responsible for the Sunreavers, every council member is, since they were part of The Kirin Tor and as such their subjects and their responsibility.
    No, just no, no on so many levels that it's not even remotely close to an yes no matter what you do. First of all the Sunreavers are a fairly NEW organization named after Aethas SUNREAVER. They're not an integral part of Dalaran, they sought to become one and their recent actions show that they shouldn't be.

    Shifting the blame isn't going to help you in any kind of way. Is the Spanish Government responsible for the founding and crimes of the ETA? No they're not. The only ones responsible for their actions are the Sunreaver themselves. All those who're supportive of the Sunreavers or even members share a part of their guilt. This is not a religion, ethnic or any other but a faction thing. If you join a group voluntarily because you support their goals and ethics then you are part of them and thus responsible for their actions.
    Would you blame the Allies for the crimes the Nazis commited? No you wouldn't. Neither would you absolve people who joined the Nazi party of their guilt for doing so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Plus remember that these actions were taking behind the backs of the ordinary sunreavers, The cook wasnt told they stole something out of darnassus.
    Fact is an entire faction got kicked out and imprisoned ever the actions of a very small clandestine group.
    The cook joined the Sunreavers voluntarily, the cook supported their goals and actions. If someone were a cook for the KKK, for the ETA, Al Qaida or any other similar organization would that mean they're innocents? Hello no! They made a conscious choice and can be held responsible for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Oh, so now all of a sudden someone is not responsible for the actions of their subordinates? Jaina put Vereesa in charge. Vereesa orders you to kill a Blood Elf trying to flee and kill/disable the dragonhawks.
    Could you guys stop being hypocrites? That'd be nice, altough I doubt it. The whole time you're going on about how neither Aethas nor any kind of other Sunreaver can be held responsible for their own or the actions of their subordinants. But in Jaina's case that's suddenly not the case anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zephre View Post
    All this was terrible writing on Blizzards part tbh.

    First she gives some speech about peace in Dalaran
    Second she wards Darnassus thus helping the Alliance.
    Third she throws a hissy fit when the sunreavers help the horde.
    No, not really. It's not all about being neutral. The Kirin Tor made a choice to aid in the defense of Theramore, they made a choice to aid the Alliance. The Sunreavers if they wanted to be a part of Dalaran would have to support them in their choice. Instead they decided to turn upon the organization they claim to belong to and actively work against the people they're working with.

    It's like an US organization deciding to work with the Nazis in World War 2 before the US officially joined the Allies. Actively hindering the Allies, aiding the Nazis in an attack upon Great Britain and such.

    So she's allowed to use resources to help Darnassus and the Alliance but if the Sunreavers do something all of a sudden it's wrong? This is terribad writing on Blizzards part and personally I see this as the death of another female character in WoW, Blizzard would of been letting Richard Knakk write this crap it'd probably be 10,000 times worse but at least it'd probably have dragons + zombie Rhonin saving the day.
    What the heck? The Kirin Tor were always leaning towards the Alliance, they're a goddamn human Kingdom with an fairly large Elven community afterall. They accepted the aid of the Horde and tried to remain neutral because of the Nexus and Lich King war where only the joined power of all factions involved could ensure victory.
    Since then Sylvanas decided to go on another Kirin Tor killing spree (just do the forsaken questline) and they were already slowly drifting towards the Alliance.

    She quoted that the Kirin Tor had a legacy of abuse and she does the same thing tossing out the very same people who taught humans magic in the first place. That right there is sucky gratitude and poor writing at it's finest.
    The Quel'dorei taught the humans so they would aid them against the Amani trolls as their war wasn't going very well. In exchange for lending strong military aid to the Quel'dorei they trained 100 mages. The humans don't have to be gratefull or prostrate themselves to the Quel'dorei for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unionoob View Post
    that place wasn't Earthen ring's zone but more like Cenarius Circle town aka druid school.
    And Hamuul who's supposed to be a member of the Cenarius Circle and should be neutral is actively helping Garrosh.

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