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  1. #1

    The Glory of the Raider Drakes being on BMAH No Longer Justifies the Achieve Nerf

    Hear me out. I know a bunch of you feel like special snowflakes who earned your Naxx drakes and don't want anyone to have them anymore. But the Plagued Proto Drake being available on the BMAH and (assuming the Black has been spotted in the same way) means there's no reason for them to not be associated with the achievements anymore. The old ZG mounts? Sure, let those be unique to the black market because that version of ZG doesn't exist anymore. But the fact that anyone can get a mount that shouldn't exist anymore with gold means that if the original way to get the mounts was still in the game, it should continue to provide the reward.

    Those of you who were good enough to get the Naxx drakes back in the day have one, two, sometimes even three titles depending how often you ran it (Undying, Immortal, and Conqueror of Naxxramas for the really good ones) that all show off what you did, all of which are more prestigious than the drakes that can now be bought for a lump sum of gold.

    Hell, some folks are reporting the Ulduar drakes being available on the BMAH, and those are just as easy to get as the Glory of the Raider achieve is (assuming nobody sucks to Disarmed). And those drakes are still very much available, and have been since forever. Just the same way, nobody's taking away your Death's Demise, Herald of the Titans, or Conqueror of Ulduar achievements away (in the case of Herald, you have to do the exact same thing now that you did then, and the other two are long gone).

    Titles are enough, especially if the other reward in question that you're clinging to is just easily bought on the BMAH for those who wait long enough.

  2. #2
    This thread is ridiculous. You're implying that once a mount is on BMAH everyone is going to have it. Wrong. These mounts appear extremely (!) rarely and go for way more gold than a normal person has. Invicibly popped up on my realm once and went for a million gold instantly, and thats the only mount I've seen on there so far.

  3. #3
    I'm inclined to agree with you, but it's more because I got my Naxx 10 meta finished the week after Ulduar launched. I'm still bitter about that one.

  4. #4
    So special exceptions should be made for those who have the money to buy a mount as opposed to those who did an entire tier's worth of progression? (a tier that was notorious for not being that hard even at the time of release, if I were playing at the time, I'd have it myself) You can't put a price on that kind of experience, and I say this as a former progressive raider through t11-12. What about those on the truly dead servers who can pick up the mount for the 20k if it's up? It being available at all opens the floodgates for so much argument against it keeping its exclusivity when every single meta drake ever since has stayed available. This isn't Corrupted Ashbringer or old, retired titles. This is something that could very easily be changed, yet keeps the aforementioned Undying and Immortal titles exclusive to those who did it back in the day.

  5. #5
    Brewmaster Banzhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ogFrenikk View Post
    This thread is ridiculous. You're implying that once a mount is on BMAH everyone is going to have it. Wrong. These mounts appear extremely (!) rarely and go for way more gold than a normal person has. Invisible popped up on my realm once and went for a million gold instantly, and thats the only mount I've seen on there so far.
    1 person - 1 million people, there's really no difference in my eyes.., there's plenty of things blizzard could have done as goldsinks for people who do nothing but play the ah, without destroying the value of past items and mounts that people invested a good or great deal of effort =/= time to obtain.

    On the other hand, I can't say that I'm surprised that everything eventually shows up on the BmaH, and I won't be surprised the day the option to buy or sell for real currency is implemented.

    OP, your opening statement to your post, double facepalm!
    Last edited by Banzhe; 2012-12-11 at 09:38 AM.

  6. #6
    I don't know if I agree...simply because of the situation they've created. I'm sure a few people have already dropped a hefty sum of gold on these mounts because they know they're unobtainable. You'd be royally screwing those folks over if the mounts were suddenly added back on the achieves. If there was a time to add them back it was when they added to the BMAH. Seeing as they didn't do it then, I doubt they're going to do it now.

  7. #7
    As someone who has both the Black and Plagued Proto-Drakes I find the titles to be less prestigious than the mount, I've come across people who earned The Immortal more than 1 year after me, meaning it was most likely done decked out in T9-T10 (?).

    So I love the fact that I have a very rare mount, but one that is account-wide and even though I have the Ulduar and ICC mounts I never use them (I also didn't get them when they were relevant).

  8. #8
    Have to agree with Puffman, I missed my Black Proto AND my Plague due to one achieve each, the Immortal for Black, (because I missed that night due to a real life issue, and the plagued due to the Dance achieve), both of which my guild had obtained and I missed out due to extraneous issues. To be honest, a nice change I would like to see is some requirements to the BMAH mounts. Need the meta already for the mounts, need H LK killed for Invincible, need Yogg Zero for Mim's head. I know quite a few people with the millions of gold available to buy these mounts, yet never experienced the content. I think it is fair for people with that sort of capital available being able to buy these mounts, but I think it would push Blizz's agenda (more people seeing more content, old or new), if they required the necessary achieves before you could buy the mounts.

  9. #9
    Apart from maybe having a different opinion on how "good" you had to be to earn those mounts as the only real difficulty I see was having that content happening in a transitional phase where people had to get used to the idea that achievements were the new "thing" to do I agree more or less . If those mounts are available to every botter out there they can just as easily make them available for everyone again via an achievement - maybe just tag the drakes as an extra on one of the new metas if having it on an old one is too simple.
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2012-12-11 at 09:40 AM.

  10. #10
    In addition, I understand what the natural response is to ideas like this. The person who earned the gold put in the time and effort into earning the gold, so he should be rewarded in kind with things like this.

    That argument works for things like TCG mounts or buying runs to meta/Heroic achievements from more skilled players. But you're telling me that someone who made his fortune in Cataclysm just from doing rounds in Uldum for weeks should be able to get a drake that, at the time, required skill and coordination because Undying/Immortal was REQUIRED for the Naxx Drakes and was impossible to get from a simple carry?

    Again, if you're making an exception for one, you're making an exception for all. Not every server is full of people who have that kind of money. Some might be so dead that only a handful on a server have enough for the 20k initial bid, and only one on the server is a true AH kingpin with over 100k. As I said before, the Ulduar Rusted drake is already confirmed available, and that's still easily attainable, as are so many things on the BMAH. I'm not saying that they give these things away, because reinstating them as the achievement rewards is anything but a giveaway. But ffs, when you make an exception to what was until this point deemed exclusive, you start running into the argument of what's too much and what's not enough.

  11. #11
    High Overlord Linthirri's Avatar
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    It should be re added to the achievement..heck the other drake they put up is still tied to one...

    I was ONE achievement away, one Malygos achievement that we could not complete the week before the patch due to completing another Malygos achievement that was required for it (we couldn't do both in one run so we were going to finish my drake up the next week) then Blizzard popped the patch and my drake was forever gone, and now it appears on BMAH as a taunt =/

  12. #12
    So far I have seen Onyxia, ashes of alar, mimiron's head and Invincible on the BMAH. All once. All had the gold cap bidded on it. These mounts pop up rarely, and I mean like tops 1 mount a week. Mounts that are hard/impossible to get go for insane ammounts of cash that hardly any player has. I mean, how many got the gold cap? I surely don't. Being able to get the gold cap is a feat on it's own. So yeah imo let them show off with the fancy mount they where able to buy. :P

    Hardly any new players will get the mounts really. Just the insanly rich ones if they are lucky and the mount pops up there.

  13. #13
    Stood in the Fire zerocoolhack's Avatar
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    If you don't have it, you didn't work for it. If they put the mount back in everyone would have them and no one would ride it because its not special. Why don't people complain this much about the original wow mounts? Why is it a problem to have special rare things in a game? Other games are worse and remove things all the time. Yes I have the plagued and its the only mount I ride. There are only about 4 people on my server that are still around that rides theirs.

  14. #14
    I don't see how a mount going once in a blue moon on the BMAH is the same as allowing 2 people to go in and lolraid Naxx10 or 25 for a mount they didn't put any effort into earning.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Lancun View Post
    So special exceptions should be made for those who have the money to buy a mount as opposed to those who did an entire tier's worth of progression? (a tier that was notorious for not being that hard even at the time of release, if I were playing at the time, I'd have it myself) You can't put a price on that kind of experience, and I say this as a former progressive raider through t11-12. What about those on the truly dead servers who can pick up the mount for the 20k if it's up? It being available at all opens the floodgates for so much argument against it keeping its exclusivity when every single meta drake ever since has stayed available. This isn't Corrupted Ashbringer or old, retired titles. This is something that could very easily be changed, yet keeps the aforementioned Undying and Immortal titles exclusive to those who did it back in the day.
    Except that the immortal/undying were some of the most frustrating achievements ever added to game.
    For what it's worth, the top guild on my server missed out on their alt run/B team run for it because a trial member was checking the loot out of one of the bosses and standing in a poison cloud or something that doesn't disappear until you're fully healed.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by stellvia View Post
    I don't see how a mount going once in a blue moon on the BMAH is the same as allowing 2 people to go in and lolraid Naxx10 or 25 for a mount they didn't put any effort into earning.
    People all the time use the Ironbound Drake because of the coloration of it/they like Ulduar. Blizzard had a model in mind set up where every meta achievement would lose its mount reward after the next tier, but the idea was so unpopular that it got scrapped after one tier of it. You get your special snowflake moment for a tier when you're the only folks on the server with the mounts, then slowly as the content becomes more accessible, more folks have access to it. Midwinter's got some publicity for being World First Glory of the Pandaria raider with that awesome Heavenly Ruby Cloud Serpent, and that's going to mean nothing once the next tier comes out. It has nothing to do with the effort you put in for the mount because everything gets easier with time/more gear/levels. You get the satisfaction for weeks/months of turning the heads of everyone on your server, that's what it's about.

    Blizzard made the decision to go back on the meta mounts being temporary rewards almost immediately after it was implemented because of all the backlash. The point of the BMAH is that it provides an alternative option if raiding or farming isn't your thing, even for something as easy to get as the Ulduar drakes, and if they reimplement the achievement reward, the Naxx Drakes. Pay for something now instead of getting it later, that's the mindset. People pay mountains of money for the Ashes of A'lar mount on the BMAH still, despite the fact that Tempest Keep is just a mindless faceroll that takes about ten minutes to get through now and you're going to get the mount eventually, same thing for Raven Lord.

    Hell, with the advent of account-wide mounts, it makes even less sense when you could just make 10 level 90s and just blitz through every instance every day/week and you're almost guaranteed to get everything eventually. Invincible will one day be the same way, probably by the next expansion when LK25H's numbers are so laughable and you're character's putting out 500k DPS.

    The point that I'm trying to make is this. Nothing in this game has timeless rarity (aside from a few token things like Corrupted Ashbringer, Atiesh, legacy titles, or Black Qiraji Battle tank, the truly old-school aspects of an era long gone. If you're going to go back on your word of turning mount rewards off of meta achievements months after you make said announcement, then there's no point in keeping the restriction in place, especially when ANYONE, one person or millions, can get it just by buying something that was meant to stay in the past. If you make an exception for one, you should just make it for all of them. "Screwing" someone over who paid a lot by making the meta achievements reward the mounts again at a later time is stupid logic. I could buy A'lar for 250k on the BMAH and get it the day after while running Tempest Keep for transmog. Blizzard didn't screw me, I screwed me by not waiting until I stopped running it.

    As an aside, let me provide you with an anecdote. I remember running the Ulduar metas for WEEKS in Cataclysm, going through and doing it when Zero Light was still a relative challenge if you didn't have a group of folks who knew mechanics. The real problem though, was Disarmed, because coordinating 25 people's DPS when they have no experience raiding can be more of a headache than you realize. I know folks on realms who had to wait until Openraid came along until they got their metas because so many Trade Chat puggers screwed them out of getting Disarmed for that very reason. Nothing quite that circumstantial comes to mind out of the Naxx achieves, but you have to remember how hard it is to bring anyone together for old content. My realm, both ally and horde side, hardly bothers with anything that isn't current tier, even the casual guilds. Which means going in and soloing/duoing the 25-man achievements definitely deserves its own reward. Even Death Knights would be sweating the Four Horseman meta on 25-man solo.

    Acting like just because it's older content means you don't have to put effort into the metas is foolhardy. Less effort? Possibly (unless like I said, you're soloing 25-man and can't brute force stuff through sheer DPS). Less time than when it was current? Nope, sometimes it takes even more time than when it was current because of the folks you bring along who don't pay attention. Kologarn for Disarmed is probably harder to pug for than it was when it was current because of how quickly he'll drop if you're not careful in coordinating DPS.
    Last edited by Lancun; 2012-12-11 at 11:12 AM.

  17. #17
    Stood in the Fire zerocoolhack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lancun View Post
    People all the time use the Ironbound Drake because of the coloration of it/they like Ulduar. Blizzard had a model in mind set up where every meta achievement would lose its mount reward after the next tier, but the idea was so unpopular that it got scrapped after one tier of it. You get your special snowflake moment for a tier when you're the only folks on the server with the mounts, then slowly as the content becomes more accessible, more folks have access to it. Midwinter's got some publicity for being World First Glory of the Pandaria raider with that awesome Heavenly Ruby Cloud Serpent, and that's going to mean nothing once the next tier comes out. It has nothing to do with the effort you put in for the mount because everything gets easier with time/more gear/levels. You get the satisfaction for weeks/months of turning the heads of everyone on your server, that's what it's about.

    Blizzard made the decision to go back on the meta mounts being temporary rewards almost immediately after it was implemented because of all the backlash. The point of the BMAH is that it provides an alternative option if raiding or farming isn't your thing, even for something as easy to get as the Ulduar drakes, and if they reimplement the achievement reward, the Naxx Drakes. Pay for something now instead of getting it later, that's the mindset. People pay mountains of money for the Ashes of A'lar mount on the BMAH still, despite the fact that Tempest Keep is just a mindless faceroll that takes about ten minutes to get through now and you're going to get the mount eventually, same thing for Raven Lord.

    Hell, with the advent of account-wide mounts, it makes even less sense when you could just make 10 level 90s and just blitz through every instance every day/week and you're almost guaranteed to get everything eventually. Invincible will one day be the same way, probably by the next expansion when LK25H's numbers are so laughable and you're character's putting out 500k DPS.

    The point that I'm trying to make is this. Nothing in this game has timeless rarity (aside from a few token things like Corrupted Ashbringer, Atiesh, legacy titles, or Black Qiraji Battle tank, the truly old-school aspects of an era long gone. If you're going to go back on your word of turning mount rewards off of meta achievements months after you make said announcement, then there's no point in keeping the restriction in place, especially when ANYONE, one person or millions, can get it just by buying something that was meant to stay in the past. If you make an exception for one, you should just make it for all of them. "Screwing" someone over who paid a lot by making the meta achievements reward the mounts again at a later time is stupid logic. I could buy A'lar for 250k on the BMAH and get it the day after while running Tempest Keep for transmog. Blizzard didn't screw me, I screwed me by not waiting until I stopped running it.
    Why do the bolded items get special treatment over the mounts?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Lancun View Post
    Hear me out. I know a bunch of you feel like special snowflakes who earned your Naxx drakes and don't want anyone to have them anymore. But the Plagued Proto Drake being available on the BMAH and (assuming the Black has been spotted in the same way) means there's no reason for them to not be associated with the achievements anymore. The old ZG mounts? Sure, let those be unique to the black market because that version of ZG doesn't exist anymore. But the fact that anyone can get a mount that shouldn't exist anymore with gold means that if the original way to get the mounts was still in the game, it should continue to provide the reward.

    Those of you who were good enough to get the Naxx drakes back in the day have one, two, sometimes even three titles depending how often you ran it (Undying, Immortal, and Conqueror of Naxxramas for the really good ones) that all show off what you did, all of which are more prestigious than the drakes that can now be bought for a lump sum of gold.

    Hell, some folks are reporting the Ulduar drakes being available on the BMAH, and those are just as easy to get as the Glory of the Raider achieve is (assuming nobody sucks to Disarmed). And those drakes are still very much available, and have been since forever. Just the same way, nobody's taking away your Death's Demise, Herald of the Titans, or Conqueror of Ulduar achievements away (in the case of Herald, you have to do the exact same thing now that you did then, and the other two are long gone).

    Titles are enough, especially if the other reward in question that you're clinging to is just easily bought on the BMAH for those who wait long enough.
    tbh the mounts are probably a hell of alot rarer being on the bmah then if they were on the achievement and special snowflakes would probably whine more
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by whoranzone View Post
    Apart from maybe having a different opinion on how "good" you had to be to earn those mounts as the only real difficulty I see was having that content happening in a transitional phase where people had to get used to the idea that achievements were the new "thing" to do I agree more or less . If those mounts are available to every botter out there they can just as easily make them available for everyone again via an achievement - maybe just tag the drakes as an extra on one of the new metas if having it on an old one is too simple.
    Eh no. Sartharion 3D 10 man was one of the hardest fights in WotLK when the mount was still attainable. You needed a little bit more than just showing up.

  20. #20
    all this talk about naxx makes me wish i could play wow right now gotta wait till i get some funds before i can go solo it for the new pet.

    my pet team is gonna be cinder kitten, baneling, plauged pup.
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

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