Second wind needs changing. Now.

[Stede]

Keep Recuperate as it is. Rogues are in a bad spot. Though they can perform well if played correctly, Recuperate is mandatory for a Rogue's survivability for a few seasons now. As much as it heals, it definitely doesn't make Rogues overpowered. Plus, it costs combo points.

/Rant off

Second wind is a recuperate that ticks just as hard, but 3x as often. It only procs when below 35%. It does not require combo points. It does not cost energy. It does not cost you a finisher. It does not cost you a GCD. It never falls off. Whereas a rogue takes at least five GCDs to build up his combo points to get a full recup off, sacrificing a damaging ability for self-healing, a warrior gets it for free.

[Flaks]

25% damage reduction at all times and second wind, along with the million defensive cooldowns, is completely fair...

if you are a fucking TANK

seriously, look at the defensives that a DK has and compare it to an arms warrior. it's a joke.

---------- Post added 2012-12-14 at 03:19 AM ----------



except it isnt, warriors should be vulnerable just like everybody else...rogues, dks, rets, the list goes on.

Contrary to popular belief, dk defenses are exceptionally potent. Ret is able to out survive a warrior any day of the week. Rogues are just in an all around bad spot. Feral is still exceptional with it's defenses.

A tank spec has a TON more defensive capability than an arms or fury warrior. There's no comparison. Like I've said, if you're having trouble against a warrior both in defensive stance and with second wind up, YOU are the problem, not warrior defenses. I'll say again that I haven't met a single class that couldn't just pop ONE SMALL damage cd to burn through both. Popping ALL cds as any of the above classes (including rogue) will let you kill a warrior through shield wall/dbts/dstance/second wind because when push comes to shove, second wind is a fuck ton weaker than things like ret's active heals or lichborne + death coil.

[trakker]

Why are you all warriors defending yourself like little girs .... gosh... I mean I know it must be cool to play the "TERMINATOR" , but i can asure you that for the rest of the players this is what makes our play time un-enjoyable.

How hard is it for you to admit it ?

[Deleted]

( -.- ) I dont find your comment funny. + Most of the time that ability is used only to break your fear instantly not prevent it..

I dont find your comment funny. + fear breaking is exclusive to warriors now ?

If the warrior manages to get multiple people in a shockwave, sry man, you deserved it for being bad.
If it shouldn't take skills, what should it take ?
I wouldn't avoid it 10/10 times, def not, but the ability is limited with flaws, regardless if YOU get hit 10/10 times.

Edit. What class do you play?

[Deleted]

Contrary to popular belief, dk defenses are exceptionally potent. Ret is able to out survive a warrior any day of the week. Rogues are just in an all around bad spot. Feral is still exceptional with it's defenses.

A tank spec has a TON more defensive capability than an arms or fury warrior. There's no comparison. Like I've said, if you're having trouble against a warrior both in defensive stance and with second wind up, YOU are the problem, not warrior defenses. I'll say again that I haven't met a single class that couldn't just pop ONE SMALL damage cd to burn through both. Popping ALL cds as any of the above classes (including rogue) will let you kill a warrior through shield wall/dbts/dstance/second wind because when push comes to shove, second wind is a fuck ton weaker than things like ret's active heals or lichborne + death coil.

Dk heals can be potent but nearly all of them cost resources or are on a cooldown.

Second wind by comparison costs nothing it has no cooldown so it is always there when your health drops. Defensive stance combined with it makes it all the more potent because the penalty for going into defensive stance is not high enough for arms because so many key skills cost little rage or no rage.

MS, Col Smash, Shockwave/Dragon roar all cost nothing. Overpower is also cheap enough to still be used often when going defensive and can proc sudden death. So you only lose slams or Heroics.

A dps dk by comparison drops resources to heal or go defensive in blood pres and still we go down like paper.

[Charge me Doctor]

Dk heals can be potent but nearly all of them cost resources or are on a cooldown.

Second wind by comparison costs nothing it has no cooldown so it is always there when your health drops. Defensive stance combined with it makes it all the more potent because the penalty for going into defensive stance is not high enough for arms because so many key skills cost little rage or no rage.

MS, Col Smash, Shockwave/Dragon roar all cost nothing. Overpower is also cheap enough to still be used often when going defensive and can proc sudden death. So you only lose slams or Heroics.

A dps dk by comparison drops resources to heal or go defensive in blood pres and still we go down like paper.

Last time i checked, Second Winds costs 1 talent point and 65% health.
Also, if you get bursted from 36% to 0, you have no profit from it. And if you want to cripple warriors damage output, just slow him down and outrange his CS/TfB. Or force him to use def stance (zero rage from white swings) or even shield wall (1h weapon ftw!). And there is 1 great thing that will ruin all damage from warrior: DISARM. Don't use it on CD, use it when he pops out his burst.

I mean, bursting warrior was never a problem, SW will never heal you above 35% health, and if you will root him and switch away, he wont recover full health. SW + Shield wall + Def stance is the same shit as mages cauterize + ice block. Nothing to bitch about.

Personaly, isee the way out of this as nerfing SW to health 75% less while stunned.

To the poster below:
I guess he ment that you can dodge it when warrior focused the other guy (by not standing in his face), by shadowstep, disengage etc.

And IMO, you should not have any problems against warriors, because i can't stand a chaos bolt in my face when at 35% health

[trakker]

I dont find your comment funny. + fear breaking is exclusive to warriors now ?

If the warrior manages to get multiple people in a shockwave, sry man, you deserved it for being bad.
If it shouldn't take skills, what should it take ?
I wouldn't avoid it 10/10 times, def not, but the ability is limited with flaws, regardless if YOU get hit 10/10 times.

Edit. What class do you play?

Hey mr. PRO , why dont you share me your skillz on avoiding instant AOE stun plz ? If its about skillz and If you have the skills to avoid instant AOE stun - then I must be speaking to a game god ...

The point of all this is that Warriors are way to OP atm, and as much as you want to defend its position, you just cant. Just open any actual arena ladder and tell me how many warrior comps do you see there ? That will proabaly show you that its not about good or bad, but about OP and underpowered.

[kosechi]

Contrary to popular belief, dk defenses are exceptionally potent. Ret is able to out survive a warrior any day of the week. Rogues are just in an all around bad spot. Feral is still exceptional with it's defenses.

this is funny. i suppose ret's survivability is fine if its not the train target, but there is rarely a situation where the ret is not the trained as soon as they get out of the gate.
its personal heals don't heal for very much, they can't use them while silenced/stunned/cced, they take time to ramp up, and unlike a warrior's heals they are effected by MS/battle fatigue. rets have no real passive damage reduction, and outside of bubble they don't have any real way to mitigate physical damage.

rets generally seem to have great survivability because they have a great capacity to open gaps and kite the hell out other melee.

Warlocks get Sac, passive 2% per 5 seconds all the time.

Rogues get Leeching Poison, passive 10% of damage done all the time.

Paladins can get a glyph, I think its 2% hp per 4 seconds as long as Avenging Wrath is up.

All monks get some form of passive heal or another. WW monks get 20% of BK as a heal, as well as random healign spheres. MW monks can have a full 100% of thier damage as healing, to all targets, not just themselves. (Granted, 50% of this requires some ramp up, and they ARE a healer class). BrM also gets random healing spheres.

Hunters, talent into 3% health every 2 (or 2% every 2, I forget). Thats almost as powerful as the Warrior's second wind, yet I have yet to hear anyone go "Nerf Spirit Bonds plzkthxbai"

Sooo, yea, LOTS of classes still have passive healing. Loads more still have a form of active healing to go with that passive healing. Warriors have NO active healing unless they get a kill if they spec Second Wind.

L2Play. Any 2 competent pvp dps should be able to take a warrior down 60% in a single 6 second stun chain with a 8 second cc on the healer. If 2 dps can't coordinate enough to take down a warrior with second wind who has a healer partner, you got outplayed. If you play healer/dps combo, focus thier healer instead.

i've never seen a single rogue take leeching poison for pvp, or a hunter take spirit bond. i'm sure some do, but its not nearly as overwhelmingly common as warriors taking second wind. maybe thats a design flaw in that tier and the other talents are just really crappy.

paladins don't use the avenging wrath glyph in pvp, and because its linked to a cooldown, it isn't passive healing.

so no, a lot of people don't have passive heals, whats more very few people have passive damage reduction.

none of the tank capable hybrids have as little punishment for sitting in their tank stance and as much of a mitigation gain as warriors do.[COLOR="red"]

---------- Post added 2012-12-14 at 06:27 PM ----------

I dont find your comment funny. + fear breaking is exclusive to warriors now ?

If the warrior manages to get multiple people in a shockwave, sry man, you deserved it for being bad.
If it shouldn't take skills, what should it take ?
I wouldn't avoid it 10/10 times, def not, but the ability is limited with flaws, regardless if YOU get hit 10/10 times.

Edit. What class do you play?

saying you are bad if you can't avoid shockwaves is like saying you are bad because you can't LoS chaos waves. arena just doesn't work that way. its not always possible to get out of the way, maybe i'm charge stunned, maybe i was just coming out of a fear maybe i'm rooted or snared, maybe i've gotten myself into a bad position against a z axis feature or a box.

[Rotesbart]

That might have more to do with a tier 2 pvp weapon and more pvp power than actual skill. Not that I'm saying reckful isn't an amazing player. Just that when push comes to shove, gear >>> skill in this game.

Reckful killing players in Cataclysm using Warglaives says hi.

[Elodeon]

Second Wind is acceptable in Arena and BGs, because of the blanket healing nerf in those environments.

In the open world, however, it's completely OP. If I count the times my character died in 1-vs-1 out in the open in MoP, it was always:
- A Warrior.
- Who attacked me first.
- Whom I managed to get below 35%, often as low as 5% or 10%, before he healed back to 35% with a no-limit passive.
- I was in competitive PvP gear (better geared than them).
- Couldn't kill them, regardless of cooldowns I popped, and the spec I used.

When a similar situation happened in arena - when me and a warrior were the last two standing - I was able to finish him off.

Second Wind is overpowered in world PvP, where it heals for 50% more than in instanced PvP. Warriors abuse it for indiscriminate ganking. They are undeservedly successful in this ganking. This makes people hate Warriors.

If some future patch or expansion finds them nerfed into oblivion, and useless in PvP, no one will shed a tear. People will remember being ganked by zealous Warriors, carried entirely by Second Wind.

[Wow]

Second Wind is acceptable in Arena and BGs, because of the blanket healing nerf in those environments.

Battle Fatigue works anywhere as long as you've taken dmg from a player you will take 30% less healing.

[Miko]

Second wind isn't over powered. You just need to know how to handle it. Also, if a warrior pops any of his def CDs you are not supposed to kill them. Honestly, if you can't watch what your doing because you are so busy trying to roll your face, you should die. Every class has a tool kit to take other classes down. Some are more powerful then others, but that can never be balanced. Watch what the warrior is doing and react to it accordingly.

[Syh]

"Pretty sure it's overpowered in both healing and rage, but want to see if the recent PvP healing nerf fixes it."

There's a link to this elsewhere in the topic (since I can't re-post it myself yet). It was posted on GC's twitter.

This was made two days after the December 11th hotfix, which included the following:

"The Battle Fatigue healing reduction debuff has been increased to 30% (was 15%)."

This insinuates that the Battle Fatigue buff, in fact, does reduce percentage based healing. I mainly posted this for all of the people who are claiming that it doesn't reduce percentage based healing effects.

[Redlikemyrage]

Second Wind is acceptable in Arena and BGs, because of the blanket healing nerf in those environments.

In the open world, however, it's completely OP. If I count the times my character died in 1-vs-1 out in the open in MoP, it was always:
- A Warrior.
- Who attacked me first.
- Whom I managed to get below 35%, often as low as 5% or 10%, before he healed back to 35% with a no-limit passive.
- I was in competitive PvP gear (better geared than them).
- Couldn't kill them, regardless of cooldowns I popped, and the spec I used.

When a similar situation happened in arena - when me and a warrior were the last two standing - I was able to finish him off.

Second Wind is overpowered in world PvP, where it heals for 50% more than in instanced PvP. Warriors abuse it for indiscriminate ganking. They are undeservedly successful in this ganking. This makes people hate Warriors.

If some future patch or expansion finds them nerfed into oblivion, and useless in PvP, no one will shed a tear. People will remember being ganked by zealous Warriors, carried entirely by Second Wind.

If you can't finish a warrior down with second wind even in world PvP, regardless of what CDs you save, then you are just plain bad. Period. Your logic on the ganking thing is also ridiculous, and is pretty much bitching about 1v1 balance, which proves ignorance about the PvP game in general.

You think warriors are the ultimate gankers? Have you ever faced a good rogue/frost mage 1v1? Warriors are joke compared to those two in 1v1 situations. A rogue can, quite literally, keep you from doing anything 1v1 as a warrior, same goes for a mage.

People, Second Wind is THE ONLY VIABLE TALENT AVAILABLE IN THAT TIER. Everything else is garbage for PvP. Garbage as in you will get shit on in arenas without it garbage. That is not the fault of the warriors taking it, why does everyone claim "herp derp warriors defend their OPness lulz." No, it's just anyone else has zero idea that Blizzard pigeon-holed us into this talent by designing warriors to be COMPLETELY RELIABLE on the talent to be competitive in 3v3. Which is also where they aim for balance... not 1v1.

In other words, if you posted bitching about 1v1 and Second Wind, you don't have a leg to stand on, and have no business posting your ignorance.

If you are posting bitching about warriors in 3v3 and Second Wind, you don't have a leg to stand on, and have no business playing the game as it is your skill/ability that is holding you back.

If you are posting because you don't like how Second Wind works (passive, no resource cost, yada yada) and are actually also suggesting that warriors need different talent choices or them redesigned for that tier, then you, my friend, can have a discussion.

TLR - QQ about 1v1 is pathetic, QQ about killing warriors in 3s is pathetic, QQ without asking for warriors to be compensated is pathetic. This thread is pathetic.

---------- Post added 2012-12-15 at 04:26 AM ----------

You do know that Ghostcrawler has tweeted like three times hints that second wind is about to get nerfed in a hotfix, don't you? (won't even have to wait for a patch).

All these warriors who are LOVING owning people 1v1 and in 2v2 keep reassuring themselves that this is going to continue and that Blizzard has their back on this issue when they don't.

So get ready to cry real hard when the second wind nerf arrives, which will be soon by all indications. GC tweeted just last night that the warrior talents were ok for the most part "except for second wind." Before that he tweeted that he didn't like to announce hotfixes by twitter but that second wind would be brought into line.

Get the tissues ready.

So what you are saying is that warriors are going to again get overnerfed? Because as anyone who doesn't actually have their head up their own ass knows, a warrior in 3v3 without Second Wind is a joke of a kill, period. Warriors without second wind die incredibly fast. So are you one of these ignorant players that agrees Second Wind needs to be nerfed without any compensation to the other talents in that tier? Good to know, this will be the only time I respond to you. Why are you ignorant? Because you use 1v1 and 2v2 in your argument.

To the guy who said 90% arena representation likely means a class is overpowered, sure, I'll agree. But that isn't the case here, despite what you seem to believe. 42% of the teams above 2k in 3v3 have warriors in my battlegroup. Is that a lot? Yes. Is that 90%? No. If you bring 2s statistics in here, I'm going to ignore your ignorance as I'm going to anyone else QQing about 1v1 or 2s.

[Charge me Doctor]

So what you are saying is that warriors are going to again get overnerfed? Because as anyone who doesn't actually have their head up their own ass knows, a warrior in 3v3 without Second Wind is a joke of a kill, period. Warriors without second wind die incredibly fast. So are you one of these ignorant players that agrees Second Wind needs to be nerfed without any compensation to the other talents in that tier? Good to know, this will be the only time I respond to you. Why are you ignorant? Because you use 1v1 and 2v2 in your argument.

To the guy who said 90% arena representation likely means a class is overpowered, sure, I'll agree. But that isn't the case here, despite what you seem to believe. 42% of the teams above 2k in 3v3 have warriors in my battlegroup. Is that a lot? Yes. Is that 90%? No. If you bring 2s statistics in here, I'm going to ignore your ignorance as I'm going to anyone else QQing about 1v1 or 2s.

Actually, SW being "only viable talent in whole tier" is not true. Improved Victory Rush rocks when you have more shit to kill (since SW wont save you from being raped by 3-6 people, better have a decent self-heal to keep your ass at 100% health if healler are CCd IMO). And enraged regen is good for tanking.
SW is really good talent for casuals (due to being passive and you wont have extra button), but something passive must be RNG based or with inner CD, or weaker than on-use talents (because you need to weave it into your rotation, not pick and forget)

[Redlikemyrage]

Actually, SW being "only viable talent in whole tier" is not true. Improved Victory Rush rocks when you have more shit to kill (since SW wont save you from being raped by 3-6 people, better have a decent self-heal to keep your ass at 100% health if healler are CCd IMO). And enraged regen is good for tanking.
SW is really good talent for casuals (due to being passive and you wont have extra button), but something passive must be RNG based or with inner CD, or weaker than on-use talents (because you need to weave it into your rotation, not pick and forget)

I'm sorry is this a PvP thread or a PvE thread?

Impending Victory and Enraged Regeneration are simply not at all strong enough for PvP. Yes, they have great usage for PvE, and I often roll one of those two over Second Wind depending on the fight. But from a PvP standpoint, there is no greater talent for competitive 3s. SW is not just a good talent for casuals, any warrior doing competitive arena will spec SW. Don't believe me? I just took a look at every warrior in the top 50 3s ladder for the Rampage battlegroup. Every single warrior, without fail, had Second Wind. Is that the warrior's fault, or Blizzard's? But let me guess, all those warriors (lowest rating being 2234) are casualbads? Good logic.

[Charge me Doctor]

I'm sorry is this a PvP thread or a PvE thread?

Impending Victory and Enraged Regeneration are simply not at all strong enough for PvP. Yes, they have great usage for PvE, and I often roll one of those two over Second Wind depending on the fight. But from a PvP standpoint, there is no greater talent for competitive 3s. SW is not just a good talent for casuals, any warrior doing competitive arena will spec SW. Don't believe me? I just took a look at every warrior in the top 50 3s ladder for the Rampage battlegroup. Every single warrior, without fail, had Second Wind. Is that the warrior's fault, or Blizzard's? But let me guess, all those warriors (lowest rating being 2234) are casualbads? Good logic.

Since when 5v5 and BGs are not PvP? By casuals i mean players who want less buttons to press, or looking for cookie cutter build from pro's to faceroll on rating ladder upwards.
And how did you made mine point of SW being good for casuals, to "all players who pick SW are scrubs"? Are you sane?

[tibe]

Hey mr. PRO , why dont you share me your skillz on avoiding instant AOE stun plz ? If its about skillz and If you have the skills to avoid instant AOE stun - then I must be speaking to a game god ...

The point of all this is that Warriors are way to OP atm, and as much as you want to defend its position, you just cant. Just open any actual arena ladder and tell me how many warrior comps do you see there ? That will proabaly show you that its not about good or bad, but about OP and underpowered.

You're talking about shockwave and shockwave is a frontal cone attack (meaning it'll hit anything 180° in front of the warrior). AoE means 360°.

By bashing on him like that, you just made yourself look like a grade A tool, congratulations.


And yes, if you ALWAYS get hit by a warrior's shockwave with a bunch of other people, you're bad.

[r3as0n]

Hey moderator; lock this thread up, its becoming nothing but a flame festival.

[Redlikemyrage]

Since when 5v5 and BGs are not PvP? By casuals i mean players who want less buttons to press, or looking for cookie cutter build from pro's to faceroll on rating ladder upwards.
And how did you made mine point of SW being good for casuals, to "all players who pick SW are scrubs"? Are you sane?

Because casual is a term often misused on this board, sorry I'm not sorry for assuming you were using the phrase like 90% of the playerbase, i.e. casual = bad. Which is exactly how you meant it based on the statement "faceroll on rating ladder upwards." Don't try to mask what you were saying because you are wrong in thinking that a talent is in strictly for casuals when 100% of the warriors in PvP who are playing for rating will take Second Wind, no exception. And cookie cutter builds? Are you even playing MoP?

If you are getting focused by 3-6 people in BGs, Second Wind will not keep a dps warrior alive. Nor will Impending Victory, as it has a 30 second CD, or Enraged Regen for that matter. Have you not played PvP lately? Have you not seen how quickly people can be bursted down even in full pvp gear? You think anyone can survive with 3 to 6 people beating on them (as long as said players have half a brain)? You entire contributions to this discussion are based on flawed assumptions and a general lack of knowledge for warriors and this game in general. 5v5 and BGs are not balanced around, period. The only balance discussion should be about Second Wind in 3s (which it is balanced for). If you are not discussing it in this fashion, then you are simply wasting everyone's time. As is anyone else complaining about duels, 1v1, 2v2, 5v5, 100v100, BGs, RBGs, Rock Paper Scissors (SCISSORS IS OP, YO!) or anything other than the only part of the pvp game Blizzard has openly said they aim to balance, 3s.