Hastefrost DW

[Evil Inside]

So I've been frost 2h since launch because I was having some bad luck with rng on one-handers. Today I got the 1h sword from the sha so I'm considering going back to DW since I've got the axe from elegon as well. Just wondering whether hastefrost is viable for DW these days, I know it was masterfrost allround at launch. The only reason for asking about hastefrost is because I despise the masterfrost priority/rotation.

[Shiira]

Define viable.

If by hastefrost dw you mean focusing on haste and obliterate as dual wield, it's worse than the other specs.

But it's not like the game isn't going to let you into instances for being "the wrong spec".

As long as you aren't raiding with people who are going to feel like you're holding them back, do whatever you want.

[Evil Inside]

By viable I mean competent dps.

[Shiira]

Well as I said it's worse than the other specs.

Right now the design is that 2h frost focuses on physical damage and dw focuses on frost damage.

But if you're asking about this you probably aren't pushing progress enough to care about the difference, so do whatever.

[Sinzaram]

I think its time we stopped using these magic phrases "Masterfrost" & "Hastefrost", they don't apply to anything anymore.

If your using a 2h, you spamming obliterates and using haste > crit > mastery.

If your using two 1hs, you spam frost strike, howling blasts and only obliterate when you have to.
This works with both mastery > haste > crit and haste > mastery > crit, but there's no change in rotation so the whole labeling "Masterfrost" & "Hastefrost" totally doesn't make sense anymore.

But these days with blood tap, it doesn't matter if you spend both unholys, because they'll proc as death runes for more howling blasts.

So TL;DR, DW uses frost damage more, 2H using obliterate more, stop calling things "Masterfrost" & "Hastefrost" plox.

[zoefschildpad]

So TL;DR, DW uses frost damage more, 2H using obliterate more, stop calling things "Masterfrost" & "Hastefrost" plox.

can we please call DW Frostfrost?

[IRunSoFarAway]

So I've been frost 2h since launch because I was having some bad luck with rng on one-handers. Today I got the 1h sword from the sha so I'm considering going back to DW since I've got the axe from elegon as well. Just wondering whether hastefrost is viable for DW these days, I know it was masterfrost allround at launch. The only reason for asking about hastefrost is because I despise the masterfrost priority/rotation.

I've been playing 2h frost as well, but in my case, I've had no luck with 2hers, but last week I got the sha sword AND the elegon axe....so I decided to go DW again. From what I've seen, my dps wasn't that different than using the 2h stat priority, in an aoe situation though mastery is obviously better because of howling blast spam. At the moment my haste and mastery are near the same, I think the only way is for you to try it and see.

[Makro]

If you are indeed referring to stacking haste and using OB instead of spamming HB and obliterating only when inevitable, then i really see no point in switching to DW. You will do sub-par damage (less then your previous 2H dmg) and you will miss out on the coolest thing of the current DW playstile: full single target dmg (well, more like 97%) while AoE'ing and vice versa. This tier of content is so AoE/cleave friendly I would probably be playing DW frost even if it did less single target dmg than 2h (which it doesn't).

can we please call DW Frostfrost?

Yes, we can.

[Nangz]

By viable I mean competent dps.

Since you haven't been very specific as to what kind of answer you are looking for ( of course it is viable, same way that int gemming is) my suggestion is that you run a sim using the 2h bis profile but swap the weapons for the 1hs. This will give you the difference between dw and dw masterfrost.

If that is in your range go for it. Though i'm still not sure why you don't just want to play 2h if you already have a weapon.

[Evil Inside]

Since you haven't been very specific as to what kind of answer you are looking for ( of course it is viable, same way that int gemming is) my suggestion is that you run a sim using the 2h bis profile but swap the weapons for the 1hs. This will give you the difference between dw and dw masterfrost.

If that is in your range go for it. Though i'm still not sure why you don't just want to play 2h if you already have a weapon.

The reason I wanted to switch to DW is because I got 2 epic weapons, as compared to a dungeon blue 2h. What I mean is does it keep up with other dps classes in a normal raiding environment.

[JGWentworth]

The reason I wanted to switch to DW is because I got 2 epic weapons, as compared to a dungeon blue 2h. What I mean is does it keep up with other dps classes in a normal raiding environment.

Define viable.

If by hastefrost dw you mean focusing on haste and obliterate as dual wield, it's worse than the other specs.

Well as I said it's worse than the other specs.

If you are indeed referring to stacking haste and using OB instead of spamming HB and obliterating only when inevitable, then i really see no point in switching to DW. You will do sub-par damage (less then your previous 2H dmg)

I hope my compilation of answers from this thread help you with your question.

[Regen]

Masterfrost is fine. Me personally, with DW I hit 5100 mastery rating and 2H I only get about 4500 haste. They do the same single target damage for me and DW is crazy AOE. The rotation isn't much different, I actually find it quite a bit more simple.

But to answer your question - because the DW spec bonus increases FS which is by and large affected by mastery and not so much by haste, and as DW you're not getting the oblit bonus, then hastefrost DW will become subpar, probably even to hastefrost 2H even with the difference in weapons.

TLDR. Stay 2H even with the weapon difference if you must but I would strongly suggest trying masterfrost.

[Lovestar]

Q: I want to dual wield but I don’t like this “masterfrost” priority. What can I do?
A: It is entirely possible to dual wield and not use the “masterfrost” priority and instead use a more 2H-esque priority by using most of your runes for Obliterate rather than Howling Blast. This is a slight DPS loss (between 1-2%) and favors more haste over mastery (Strength > Hit/Exp > Haste > Mastery > Crit).

From the Elitist Jerks Frost guide. Is this still accurate, or has community data/concensus/opinion changed?

Regarding Haste vs. Mastery as DW Frost, I'm aware that Mastery directly buffs both Frost Strike and Howling Blast. However, Haste should lead to more HBs, more FS, and more KM procs, right? Doesn't that narrow the gap between the two stats? I ask because the EJ guide's stat priority for DW Frost is "Mastery >= Haste", which lead me to think about why Haste could potentially be "=" Mastery.

[Shiira]

Is this still accurate, or has community data/concensus/opinion changed?

That was probably written in cataclysm, before the frost strike damage bonus for dual wield was added.

[Lovestar]

That was probably written in cataclysm, before the frost strike damage bonus for dual wield was added.

No, not at all. The guide was updated for 5.04 / 5.05 and that's when the FAQ section was added. It could still be inaccurate — nothing is gospel in any guide ^.~ — but I do find it interesting. I'm just not a very good theorycrafter so sorting it out myself is daunting.

[Kraeth]

Judging from that, it's 'viable' to dw haste. Viable being, of course, your preference vs. your contribution. Dpswise it seems, for now, they might be close, but I'd never go dw haste without simming the living crap out of myself.

[Schizoide]

DW Frost T14N Masterfrost: 96802 DPS
DW Frost T14N Hastefrost: 90784 DPS (-6.2%)
2H Frost T14N: 95553 DPS (-1.3%)

Viable, sure. But 6.2% is a lot.

[Lovestar]

Edit: @ Schizoide, very cool, TY. Is "Hastefrost" the HB priority, but using Haste over Mastery, or is it actually DW using the 2H Oblit priority?

I think — and again I'm not a maestro at theory or anything, this is just what comes off the top of my head based on what I've read — it's partially contributed to by the fact that while Oblit itself is much weaker than spending those Runes on 2x HB (at least just looking at my personal Recount numbers), more Oblits also procs more Freezing Fog, partially mitigating the loss of HBs which gets added to the modest Oblit damage. That might bring the two closer together, assuming you react well to Freezing Fog and don't waste it.

I guess there's also two different questions going on here, which aren't necessarily the same:
1. Is prioritizing Haste > Mastery but following an HB > Oblit cycle viable?
2. Is using the Cata/2H priority favoring Oblit > HB viable?

From what I'm picking up looking around at guides and discussions, #1 seems mostly equivocal but slightly worse. While #2 seems like a flat damage loss, but not as severe as it might be assumed at first glance.

[Schizoide]

DW hastefrost is essentially identical to 2H hastefrost but prioritizing frost strike over obliterate except where you'll leave runes unused. Everybody took rime into account when working on masterfrost in the first place.

Pretty much everything is viable-- talking about viable isn't really productive. The word you're probably looking for is competitive. DW hastefrost is not competitive with DW masterfrost or 2H hastefrost.

Your #1 is not competitive performance, you want to gear for mastery as DW. Your #2 is really not competitive-- are you really asking if it's OK to prioritize obliterate as DW? The answer is no.

Note that while DW masterfrost is technically superior to 2H hastefrost even on single targets, that is using manual unmacroed blood tap. That priority is actually somewhat complex, and I wouldn't do it myself. I play DW frost with RE and following the standard masterfrost priority. This is lower single-target than 2H, but not by much, and DW has tons of other advantages that (IMO) make it a clear winner.

[Lovestar]

DW hastefrost is essentially identical to 2H hastefrost but prioritizing frost strike over obliterate except where you'll leave runes unused. Everybody took rime into account when working on masterfrost in the first place.

I'm new to the DK DPS world so let me try to clarify the terminology that's being used, because it's a little ambiguous/confusing:

Masterfrost is a rotation priority that DW Frost uses when choosing to follow a Mastery > all stat priority. (but Sinzaram's post suggests it's actually the same priority for DW stacking Haste... D:)

Hastefrost is a stat priority that favors Haste > all.
2H Frost is always Hastefrost and so the 2H Frost rotation priority can also be considered Hastefrost.
DW Hastefrost is thus a DW Frost DK that follows a Haste stat priority and imitates the 2H Frost rotation priority.

The difference between 2H and DW Hastefrost is strictly which ability has priority when spending Killing Machine, or faced with resource capping (FS vs. Oblit).

Is that roughly correct?

Your #1 is not competitive performance, you want to gear for mastery as DW. Your #2 is really not competitive-- are you really asking if it's OK to prioritize obliterate as DW? The answer is no.

I was actually just trying to sort out the different questions the OP seemed to be asking, because I find the topic interesting and I'm trying to learn Frost DK myself right now. Again, the terminology is really ambiguous at first.

But both of my questions resulted from statements made in the EJ guide which seems to play down the difference between Masterfrost and "2H-esque" cycles for DW. I find this interesting because everywhere else the sentiment seems to be that using the current 2H style as DW is a crime against nature.

I'm still trying to understand the EJ guide's assertion, which again strikes me as strange in the context of everything else I'm being told:

It is entirely possible to dual wield and not use the “masterfrost” priority and instead use a more 2H-esque priority by using most of your runes for Obliterate rather than Howling Blast. This is a slight DPS loss (between 1-2%) and favors more haste over mastery (Strength > Hit/Exp > Haste > Mastery > Crit).

So is that describing what you're referring to as "DW Hastefrost"? If so, does that mean the 1-2% listed loss there is actually closer to 6.2%, based on the numbers you posted?