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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by IronRabbit View Post
    Can we state this another way?

    "You should always use the weapon which has the highest damage value (NOT DPS)."
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    THANK YOU SIR!

    This what i have been TRYING to get across it's weapon DAMAGE NOT SPEED that is most important.

    It's just often termed speed due to A being simpler and B because at high level it's generally true excluding a few freak accidents which then get corrected.
    This is factually incorrect.

    Weapon Damage = [Base Weapon DPS + (AP/14)] * Base Weapon Speed

    Say you have 35000 attack power and a 2.6 speed weapon with 3504.4 dps (e.g. gara'kal). Your character sheet's average weapon damage will be 15611.44 (assuming MH). This weapon will have a base damage range of 6378 (0.7 * 3504.4 * 2.6) to 11845 (1.3 * 3504.4 * 2.6).

    In order to match that character sheet weapon damage, a 1.6 speed weapon would need to have a base dps of 7257.15, which equates to a base damage range of 8128 to 15095 (i.e. significantly higher than the slower weapon).

    In other words, any 1.6 speed weapon that falls between an average base damage of 9111.5 (slow weapon example) and 11611.5 (fast weapon example) will result in softer-hitting melee specials than the slow weapon, despite having higher base weapon damage (assuming identical stats - in reality, the faster weapon in this example would have much better stats due to the ilvl jump and would almost certainly be an upgrade). The reason for this discrepancy is weapon speed, which is directly proportional to the attack power coefficient on your special attacks, since they are not normalized (special attacks using a 1.6 speed weapon only get 61.5% as much of your AP as they would receive if you were using a 2.6 speed weapon, instead (1.6/2.6)).

    And all of the above is focused purely on how hard our yellow attacks are hitting (windfury / lava lash / stormstrike / etc.). It ignores other reasons why we would want slow weapons, like maelstrom weapon's proc frequency or windfury weapon's hidden ICD. At the end of the day, speed matters much more than base weapon damage.
    Last edited by Nitwit; 2012-12-17 at 09:30 PM.

  2. #42
    Legendary! Sorrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    This is factually incorrect.

    Weapon Damage = [Base Weapon DPS + (AP/14)] * Base Weapon Speed

    Say you have 35000 attack power and a 2.6 speed weapon with 3504.4 dps (e.g. gara'kal). Your character sheet's average weapon damage will be 15611.44 (assuming MH). This weapon will have a base damage range of 6378 (0.7 * 3504.4 * 2.6) to 11845 (1.3 * 3504.4 * 2.6).

    In order to match that character sheet weapon damage, a 1.6 speed weapon would need to have a base dps of 7257.15, which equates to a base damage range of 8128 to 15095 (i.e. significantly higher than the slower weapon).

    In other words, any 1.6 speed weapon that falls between an average base damage of 9111.5 (slow weapon example) and 11611.5 (fast weapon example) will result in softer-hitting melee specials than the slow weapon, despite having higher base weapon damage (assuming identical stats - in reality, the faster weapon in this example would have much better stats due to the ilvl jump and would almost certainly be an upgrade). The reason for this discrepancy is weapon speed, which is directly proportional to the attack power coefficient on your special attacks, since they are not normalized (special attacks using a 1.6 speed weapon only get 61.5% as much of your AP as they would receive if you were using a 2.6 speed weapon, instead (1.6/2.6)).

    And all of the above is focused purely on how hard our yellow attacks are hitting (windfury / lava lash / stormstrike / etc.). It ignores other reasons why we would want slow weapons, like maelstrom weapon's proc frequency or windfury weapon's hidden ICD. At the end of the day, speed matters much more than base weapon damage.
    Heh please do your math again with say an heirloom dagger at lets say 50 vs an equvilent blue weapon. THAT is the real debate.


    Oh and so we toned down the math a bit. Yes i KNOW about the ICD and Maelstrom couldn't have mained enh for 6 years without knowing that.

  3. #43
    end of story use the heirloom maces
    do what you feel.

  4. #44
    Legendary! Sorrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacepunch View Post
    end of story use the heirloom maces
    Bi the Heirloom daggers are fine stop twisting facts.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Hi guys,

    I need to know, if it's a good idea to use 2 daggers (BOA) instead of the 2 maces (BOA), because right now i only have the daggers, i haven't been able to get the 2 maces for my shaman "enhancement" and i'm planing to level by quests to level 60 from level 1.


    Thanks
    Slower weapons = big damage.

    Faster weapons = lol stop tickling me damage

  6. #46
    Legendary! Sorrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Notamonk View Post
    Slower weapons = big damage.

    Faster weapons = lol stop tickling me damage
    Again we're talkung heirlooms here...Not normal weapons.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Heh please do your math again with say an heirloom dagger at lets say 50 vs an equvilent blue weapon. THAT is the real debate.
    Assuming you have ~700 attack power at level 50 (guessing based on some random lvl 50 enhancement shaman armories I'm looking at), and the level 50 alternative weapon is http://www.wowhead.com/item=10805:

    [36.5+(700/14)]*2.6 = (x + 700/14)*1.7
    x = 82.3 base dps (98-182 damage range) required for the fast weapon to do equal damage with special attacks. The dagger's actual stats at level 50 is 36.0 dps & 42-79 damage.

    The level 50 blue has a damage range of 66-124, so, yeah ... nothing really changed with lower stats. Fast weapons need to have a large weapon damage advantage before they can even think about breaking even with slow weapons for special attacks.

    Obviously the stats on the BoA dagger will eventually take over as you continue leveling (at level ~67-68, actually), but you'd find yourself in a much better spot if you just bought the BoA maces (which are 2.8 speed). Justice points aren't exactly difficult to grind out. Even if you don't want to spend the justice points on BoA maces, you could just buy random 2.6 speed green weapons off of the AH for <10g each every 5-15 levels, and they'll outperform the BoA daggers fairly easily.
    Last edited by Nitwit; 2012-12-19 at 12:14 AM.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    Assuming you have ~700 attack power at level 50 (guessing based on some random lvl 50 enhancement shaman armories I'm looking at), and the level 50 alternative weapon is http://www.wowhead.com/item=10805:

    [36.5+(700/14)]*2.6 = (x + 700/14)*1.7
    x = 82.3 base dps (98-182 damage range) required for the fast weapon to do equal damage with special attacks. The dagger's actual stats at level 50 is 36.0 dps & 42-79 damage.

    The level 50 blue has a damage range of 66-124, so, yeah ... nothing really changed with lower stats. Fast weapons need to have a large weapon damage advantage before they can even think about breaking even with slow weapons for special attacks.

    Obviously the stats on the BoA dagger will eventually take over as you continue leveling (at level ~67-68, actually), but you'd find yourself in a much better spot if you just bought the BoA maces (which are 2.8 speed). Justice points aren't exactly difficult to grind out. Even if you don't want to spend the justice points on BoA maces, you could just buy random 2.6 speed green weapons off of the AH for <10g each every 5-15 levels, and they'll outperform the BoA daggers fairly easily.


    Yeah no one here has ever said the maces aren't optimal just that the heirloom daggers are alright for LEVELING.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Yeah no one here has ever said the maces aren't optimal just that the heirloom daggers are alright for LEVELING.
    It's not a negligible difference. Daggers are typically significantly worse performers for Enhancement. The point of heirloom daggers is to make leveling faster by ensuring you have roughly blue-quality weapons of your level at all times. Using heirloom daggers would likely mean you'd be about as well off making do with greens and quest/dungeon blues as you level. It really is that much of a difference.

    Yes, you can use them, but they're not going to be great for the purpose for which heirlooms exist, is the point. It's a bigger difference than, say, using the wrong armor type; I didn't want to buy Agility mail heirlooms for my Hunter, since my Shaman was already at the level cap (and my main), but I already had Rogue heirlooms, so I just used the Agility leather. That meant I was out 5% Agility from level 50-80 (due to not activating Mail Specialization), but it was worth it because the mail items provided bonus experience. If they HADN'T provided bonus XP, I probably wouldn't have bothered, particularly once entering Outlands for the 58+ content. Weapons don't provide that bonus XP, and should be considered on stats alone, and weapon speed is a pretty big deal.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Bi the Heirloom daggers are fine stop twisting facts.
    no facts were twisted, my statement stands.
    do what you feel.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacepunch View Post
    no facts were twisted, my statement stands.
    Heh my point is he asked if the daggers were okay. As far as i can tell with all the other heirlooms then he should be able to do at least average damage.

    I've been leveling without them on MANY toons and they are TRULY op even the armor alone with piss poor weapons often nets someone a TREMONDOUS boost in DPS and survivability.

    So yea i say he should be fine. Better with maces? Of course but taking everything else into account he should be fine.

  12. #52
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    get the maces its worth it
    There is only one god and his name is Sargeras.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Taftvalue View Post
    get the maces its worth it
    wit the current speed of gaining jp? hell no

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by loki504 View Post
    wit the current speed of gaining jp? hell no
    My thoughts exactly...In Cata or wrath hell yes in pandaria...no not really.

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