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  1. #1
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Red Stagger, Red Stagger!

    So was clearing HoF trash and right as I hit heavy stagger I get stunned so couldn't clear, few seconds later healer starts shouting "Red stagger, red stagger!" over voice like a bomb was going to go off. I mentioned being surprised the dot color was actually watched and he mostly just stated that he had learned it was very hard to push my health towards the positive while it was showing.

    Course it made for a funny mid-fight sound byte so now I HAVE to make sure I keep enough Chi handy to clear heavy+ or I'll have to listen to half the raid shouting it and laughing =P

    Does make me wonder how it effects healer behavior for those that do pay attention to our stagger color.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  2. #2
    Pandaren Monk Archimand's Avatar
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    it actually mean he paying attention so rather good

    i assume more HOTS
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  3. #3
    The Insane peggleftw's Avatar
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    what on earth is stagger? is it something to do with tank spec?
    Too cool for a signature

  4. #4
    Dreadlord Kyuubi87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peggleftw View Post
    what on earth is stagger? is it something to do with tank spec?
    For Brewmasters yeah.

  5. #5
    The Insane peggleftw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuubi87 View Post
    For Brewmasters yeah.

    ah, ive never tried the spec, my monk is only 70ish at the moment, but mostly been doing healer. was just curious.
    Too cool for a signature

  6. #6
    The stagger buff contains 3 different colors:
    Green-you're staggering a small amount of damage, not too much of a big deal
    Yellow-you're staggering a moderate amount of damage, clear it soon
    Red-you're staggering a massive amount of damage! CLEAR YOUR STAGGER NOW!

  7. #7
    High Overlord McLockhart's Avatar
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    For the uninitiated
    Stagger is a monk brewmaster mechanic which allows you to take a certain percentage of the damage you recieve and convert it into a dot. This dot is known as stagger and can be removed by the monk brewmaster at the cost of 1 chi.

    On topic: Sounds like a healer who pays attention (:

    Wait a second.. Did you actually use the ingame voice com? 0o
    Last edited by McLockhart; 2012-12-13 at 02:31 AM.

  8. #8
    Herald of the Titans Nikkaszal's Avatar
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    Man, screw that HoF trash right in the ear.

    I really, really, REALLY hate stuns. Being able to PB while stunned would be a god-send.
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  9. #9
    Yeah I've had comments from our healer about how she likes stagger. I guess it does give them an indication of not just how hard we are to heal now but also how hard it's going to be for several more seconds. But yeah, they do look at it.

  10. #10
    I am Murloc! Luko's Avatar
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    RED SNAPPAH!

    Listen kiddos, trust Handsome Jack. You want every part of this insanity.
    So many people are gonna die.

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  11. #11
    i think my healers don't know shit about my class and how it worked. they know all other tanks like "yeah they get shit in the face and block or dodge" i can't even say "i'm like a death knight, i need chi to defend myself, chi comes from active spells, so i need to hit the mobs, i need haste and crit to buff myself fast to have my shuffle, dodgebuff and shield up. but don't expect me to have this ALL THE TIME up, there are situations where i have to drop one or two of my buffs in order so save my arse, heal the raid or whatever"
    no, they don't get it. so for example. princess -> adds. i pop first CD (FB). tanking the adds, stunning them, rolling away, kiting, hitting, pop next cd (DH) and so on. well nothing really happens with my HP bar, so the healer might think "well, he is fine with my hots" seconds later BÄMBÄMBÄM down...."ohh wait was was that. u dropped in 2 seconds from 90% to 0%. where are your CDs man?" "well, i have nothing left, just spam my ass with heals".

    there are many boss fights that happens. like the bladelord. i'm fine, guard is up, good amont of shuffletime, got EB on 15 stacks rolling, BÄMBÄMBÄM, down.......

  12. #12
    Hah, y'know, I never realised that it was something healers could keep track of. I mean it's obvious when you think about it, but it just never occured to me. I may have to go mention this to my healers!

  13. #13
    It's probably showing up on healing mods. I wonder if they tried to dispel when they first saw it heh.

    I think from feedback that I'm easier to heal than other tanks. At least not harder. The fact that the dk tank got smashed by shek' zeer adds at least as fast as me was good to see (in a way) as well. Lol.

  14. #14
    I'm not sure if it's easier or harder... just different. This probably means that a lot of people will perceive us as more difficult to heal, but the truth is that they just need to get used to it. We're a very different tank class to the others, so require slightly different healing strategies.

    When I first started raiding on my Monk, my HP was jumping all over the place. Probably due to two factors: the healers having no idea what to expect, and me being relatively new to the class (only had 5-6 days /played time by that point, and I didn't spend much time on beta). But we talked, I made sure to read up on the class, and things are a lot better now.

    The basic thing is to just communicate. Tell your healers what to expect and make their lives as easy as possible. There may be some backlash (and I've had my fair share of 'just play your DK ffs' comments :P), but in the end it will work. We are great tanks, so long as we play well and communicate with our healers.

    The way I see us being balanced is that overall, we take less damage than other classes. This has been my pretty consistent (if anecdotal) observation so far. However, we generally have a lot less HP than other classes, so we end up seeming spikier to heal (a 100k hit on a 400k HP tank will look worse than a 125k hit on a 600k HP tank, even though the latter took more damage), which can panic healers if they don't know what to expect. They need to be a bit more aware, quicker to react, etc.

    So y'know... Communicate. Practice. Tell your healers what to expect, and do everything you can to make their lives easier. Down that path lies happiness and true enlightenment.

  15. #15
    Herald of the Titans Nikkaszal's Avatar
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    I think we take less damage overall than other tanks when we play at a high skill level. What I mean by this is that a lot of damage intake for a monk isn't just about throwing up active mitigation when it's available and rolling with everything else, but also about proper management of the Stagger mechanic.

    For example, you can sort of compare Shuffle/Guard to, say, a warrior's Shield Block or a DK's Blood Shield. Active mitigation that you want to use effectively and keep premium uptime on. But then after all that, we're slapped with Stagger which we manage entirely separately to "active mitigation". With Stagger, we've already theoretically taken the damage, it's just queued up, and it's up to us to decide when to cut it off and wipe the stack.

    That's when it comes down to intuition, skill and practise. Sure, you can Purify a lot of your Light Stagger stack and keeping up a heavy, heavy usage of PB will keep your Stagger damage intake low. But that comes at the expense of lower uptime on Shuffle/Guard/etc, resulting probably in a greater overall intake coupled with increased risk of spike damage deaths. On the other hand, letting your Stagger ramp up too much means you'll be a mana sponge for your healers dealing with you taking more than one source of damage (Stagger DoT + melee attacks/specials etc). Thus, the onus is on the monk to find that particular sweet spot of Purification, depending on not only the status of his/her personal mitigation buffs but also the fight mechanics (eg when tanking Vizier in HoF, I hit moderate Stagger always when soaking Exhale and/or Force and Verve without Guard active, but I'll wait until right as the cast ends to clear it because I'm taking very predictable damage that's not difficult to heal, with zero risk of spike death).

    On a related note, all of our healers have remarked that I'm the favourite when it comes to dealing with fight-mechanic tank-gibbers like Bladelord's strike and Elegon's breath, because we are custom built to reliably absorb predictable spike damage through smart use of short CD's like Guard and DH coupled with the Stagger mechanic. Especially on Bladelord, where the second strike is the one that frightens the pants off other tanks and their healers, I just throw up Guard and/or DH right before it hits and my HP barely wobbles. My UI immediately screams at me with a sudden immense Stagger stack, but then I laugh in its face and PB and feel like a complete boss.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikkaszal View Post
    On a related note, all of our healers have remarked that I'm the favourite when it comes to dealing with fight-mechanic tank-gibbers like Bladelord's strike and Elegon's breath, because we are custom built to reliably absorb predictable spike damage through smart use of short CD's like Guard and DH coupled with the Stagger mechanic. Especially on Bladelord, where the second strike is the one that frightens the pants off other tanks and their healers, I just throw up Guard and/or DH right before it hits and my HP barely wobbles. My UI immediately screams at me with a sudden immense Stagger stack, but then I laugh in its face and PB and feel like a complete boss.
    If you don't need it as a raid CD, Zen Meditation works wonders for Elegons Breath as well.

  17. #17
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McLockhart View Post
    Wait a second.. Did you actually use the ingame voice com? 0o
    WoW has in game voice? =P No don't use it just kept which I use generic so some idiot doesn't go off topic on the pro's/con's of the various choices.

    Being able use PB while stunned would be awesome, god help us if Blizz puts a raid boss that stuns in T15. We are awesome for boss gimmicky mechanics, EB for Thrash, Zen Med for breaths, Dampen Harm for Bladelord. Clearing Terrace LFR my MW friend was asking if the bosses were even hitting me, between huge avoidance/guad/self heals I guess there was almost no need for external healing. Played well we are one of the best tanks this tier (course I'm biased), same MW friend raids with another BrM and he hates healing him but loves having me as a MT so it's the player not the class.

    Only boss I really dislike is Lei Shi but that's probably cause I'm jealous of our DK on that one with 45 sec AMS to use the whole fight. Being able to pick up/snare the adds with Dizzy Haze without breaking CC is pretty cool though in return.

    Probably worth taking the time to explain at least how stagger works to your healers. The healer mentioned was a Shm and didn't really know exactly how stagger worked just that when it turned red he knew s**t was going down.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikkaszal View Post
    I think we take less damage overall than other tanks when we play at a high skill level. What I mean by this is that a lot of damage intake for a monk isn't just about throwing up active mitigation when it's available and rolling with everything else, but also about proper management of the Stagger mechanic.

    For example, you can sort of compare Shuffle/Guard to, say, a warrior's Shield Block or a DK's Blood Shield. Active mitigation that you want to use effectively and keep premium uptime on. But then after all that, we're slapped with Stagger which we manage entirely separately to "active mitigation". With Stagger, we've already theoretically taken the damage, it's just queued up, and it's up to us to decide when to cut it off and wipe the stack.

    That's when it comes down to intuition, skill and practise. Sure, you can Purify a lot of your Light Stagger stack and keeping up a heavy, heavy usage of PB will keep your Stagger damage intake low. But that comes at the expense of lower uptime on Shuffle/Guard/etc, resulting probably in a greater overall intake coupled with increased risk of spike damage deaths. On the other hand, letting your Stagger ramp up too much means you'll be a mana sponge for your healers dealing with you taking more than one source of damage (Stagger DoT + melee attacks/specials etc). Thus, the onus is on the monk to find that particular sweet spot of Purification, depending on not only the status of his/her personal mitigation buffs but also the fight mechanics (eg when tanking Vizier in HoF, I hit moderate Stagger always when soaking Exhale and/or Force and Verve without Guard active, but I'll wait until right as the cast ends to clear it because I'm taking very predictable damage that's not difficult to heal, with zero risk of spike death).

    On a related note, all of our healers have remarked that I'm the favourite when it comes to dealing with fight-mechanic tank-gibbers like Bladelord's strike and Elegon's breath, because we are custom built to reliably absorb predictable spike damage through smart use of short CD's like Guard and DH coupled with the Stagger mechanic. Especially on Bladelord, where the second strike is the one that frightens the pants off other tanks and their healers, I just throw up Guard and/or DH right before it hits and my HP barely wobbles. My UI immediately screams at me with a sudden immense Stagger stack, but then I laugh in its face and PB and feel like a complete boss.

    Do u mean Bladelord or the Windlord?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    WBeing able use PB while stunned would be awesome, god help us if Blizz puts a raid boss that stuns in T15.
    Not being able to clear you stagger is similar to a warrior/pala not being able to block. Its just a negative side effect of being stunned. If you could clear while stunned that would be pretty OP imo.

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  20. #20
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clampy View Post
    Not being able to clear you stagger is similar to a warrior/pala not being able to block. Its just a negative side effect of being stunned. If you could clear while stunned that would be pretty OP imo.
    We also have a ton less HP and Armor compared to other tanks, we are punished more when our defenses are down than the others. Shuffle can drop, Guard can drop, you can't use Expel Harm or pick up GotO orbs. We are punished plenty, being able to use PB while stunned isn't OP considering you have to have stored up some Chi before it happens to even be used.

    Right now it's only an issue on a few trash packs and Challenge Modes (which is a big deal to those that care about them), my fear is it remains an issue and they introduce a raid mechanic that makes BrM near worthless as a tank choice from it.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

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