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  1. #241
    Bloodsail Admiral Ethes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastmasterGuardian View Post
    Though some feel the sense of superiority, others like myself merely see the differences. We shake our heads at the masses demanding things not realizing how easy they have it. Here are some examples:

    CLASSIC/TBC > WRATH +

    1) Simple wood + Flint and tinder = camfire > /cast Campfire (no mats)
    2) Walk til level 40, spend 300g for one horse + Training > Mount at 20, everything under 10g
    3) Use Ammo and bag slot for hunters > Ammo no longer needed, hunters get 5 bags
    4) Warlock enslaves Drake and turns loose in Goldshire > Kiting takes longer and more technical
    5) No flying at all, then flight at 70 (Outlands only) > Flying at 60, extreme reduced price and fly everywhere
    6) AQ20 / 40 required 20/40 > Now needs 2-4 people tops
    7) Molten Core needed 25 people, took hours > Some Cata Raids completely soloable
    8) Had to level unarmed and weapon skills from 1 > Damage scales with level, no longer required to practice
    9) Only two ways to SW from Darnassus. Mage, or run > Boat drops you in SW instead of Menethil Harbor
    10) Mining, Skinning, Herbing had a chance to fail > Only fails when attacked
    11) Mine / Herb / Skin gave 1 of each item > New Mechanic and guild perk gives up to 7 of any item
    12) You had to LFG/LFR in town using Trade Chat > Click on LFG/LFR. Join.
    13) Grind to level 40 was running to SM daily > Grinding now done in Dungeons or questing
    14) You got a tabard AFTER you were Exalted > You bought a tabard to grind to exalted
    15) Ambassador title meant you quested everywhere > Ambassador title means you bought all the tabards
    Because things were more time consuming to achieve, doesn't mean that they're more difficult. It just means they're more time consuming and where I agree with some of your points (14, 15 and maybe 1) I disagree with all the others ore they're downright not true.

    1. I partially agree as it makes a bit more sense, but you really don't want to be carrying around these items all the time to be fair
    2. Running around is just more a pain in the ass, it doesn't increase the game difficulty
    3. You know that for raids, you often carried handcrafted, expensive ammo in pretty much all your bagslots as the biggest pouches weren't sufficient for a whole raid
    4. So basically you're saying kiting has become more difficult
    5. Reduced price =/= game difficulty? You can't fly in Azeroth content (outside of cata content) when it is relevant
    6. Of course completely outdated raids will be duo-able or solo-able... It would be strange if it wasn't
    7. 25M in MC < 25M in Firelands or any other current raid which you can't do with ~60% of the possible maximum WHEN IT IS CURRENT CONTENT
    8. You know how annoying it was to level all those weapon skills? Yay, got a mace now, but can't use it yet! Again, not difficulty, just time consuming
    9. Improved ways of traveling is good as far as I'm concerned. Again, no difficulty but only a time consuming feature
    10. Why exactly would you want this? And, again just time consuming, has nothing to do with difficulty
    11. Not as long as I have had gathering professions, but I didn't have them at the start of vanilla. Might have changed among the way somewhere
    12. Yes, however this was implemented at the end of Wrath.
    13. Your point being?
    14+15 I agree, the way it currently works is stupid!

    Now, all you're points basically prove that the game requires less time in order to achieve something. But outside 5m heroic dungeons and solo (quest) content, raid content is actually a lot harder than it was back then. The only real challenge in vanilla and BC was having enough time to commit!
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  2. #242
    I don't personally begrudge players that joined post-Burning Crusade, but I will say that players that started during TBC or vanilla are more enjoyable to raid with. Generally they appreciate hard work more, are less likely to burn out or cause loot drama. If people were to just be honest with themselves, the players joining post-BC basically had everything handed to them. This isn't even me saying the work and effort you had to put in before that was better, but that players were able to appreciate better when they did get an item or down a boss. There was a sense of community back then, and real competition between guilds. You really have to look at the term "Wrath Baby" and break it down. The "baby" stuck because of players starting at that point essentially having things spoon fed to them, and not having any real idea what it meant to do something that took hard work. If you asked a lot of those characters to grind out their Frozen Shadoweave and Spellstrike sets, or farm materials for resistance gear with the guild to help their raid progress, you wouldn't get much of anywhere.

    I don't miss the endless grind for resist gear and reputations or crafted gear, so like I said, I don't berate or have any particular bias against post-BC players; I do, however, know where I learned to appreciate things in the game more and have patience with other people over the years, and why I don't throw a hissy fit when I lose loot to someone because I have this delusion that everyone is inferior to me in some way. It certainly wasn't the first two expansions that nutured players into that behavior. Elitism used to come from high end raid guilds that to a small degree could say they actually were better than other players. Now every casual thinks he's better than the next player and spams Recount/Skada in party chat every 5-man boss or trash pull and berates the player that just hit 80/85/90 wearing half greens. And if you're a douchebag, there's no real social consequences for that - you will probably never see the players in your random dungeon or LFR again. Instead of being blacklisted by your realm's populace for consistent douchebaggery and paying for it via alienation due to having to farm parties on your own realm, you just queue up instead of learning not to be a douche the hard way.
    Last edited by Sakashima; 2012-12-14 at 08:17 AM.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Riot View Post
    Consumer is always right. The internet would appear to think it is anti-consumer/material in philosophy, but human nature breeds the "Nobody is wrong on the internet" philosophy due to things like the greater internet fuckwad theory and "intellectual" egotism bred by cultures such as WoW where people judge others based on their performance in a hobby
    This amused me. You think people who play sports as a hobby don't judge each other on performance (even when they are on the same team)? Same could be said for card games, collectors, knitting, hell any hobby where more than one person does it.

    As for the subject at hand. Those of us that have been playing longer are not necessarily better players, we probably have more experience of the game in terms of time played and we certainly have seen more changes to the game than those that stared more recently. Does that make opinions more valid? Not really. It's not like those who have played that long share a common opinion. For example I don't buy into the whole Burning Crusade was the best expansion and the raiding was awesome that seems to be a commonly expressed viewpoint. Or at least loudly expressed. I personally think the game is better than ever right now.

    Is it perfect? No. Do I like all the changes? No. Would I go back to play an older version of the game? No.
    Last edited by The High Druid; 2012-12-14 at 08:34 AM.

  4. #244
    The Patient Divine's Avatar
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    as a ''old'' player i never go bashing new players or tell them when i've started except few IRL friends since i introduced them to the game.
    usually when i speak about the ''good ol' days'' they go apeshit. which makes me just want to irritate them more, usually

    ''in old days you had to press 24 buttons at the same time so you could move'' etc

    so i don't know what's the ''new'' players problem? not that i've haven't got an advice when asking where's a place im looking for in mop by the ''new'' players/friends, since i don't know all the places in mop atm.

  5. #245
    because they first started playing in bc so thats when they had the most fun. the thought that someone could also have fun later on when the game is "obviously" "dumbed down" somehow invalidates their pride as hardcores who played the most hardcore part of the easy carebear mmo O-O
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  6. #246
    I am Murloc! ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethes View Post
    Because things were more time consuming to achieve, doesn't mean that they're more difficult. It just means they're more time consuming and where I agree with some of your points (14, 15 and maybe 1) I disagree with all the others ore they're downright not true.

    1. I partially agree as it makes a bit more sense, but you really don't want to be carrying around these items all the time to be fair
    2. Running around is just more a pain in the ass, it doesn't increase the game difficulty
    3. You know that for raids, you often carried handcrafted, expensive ammo in pretty much all your bagslots as the biggest pouches weren't sufficient for a whole raid
    4. So basically you're saying kiting has become more difficult
    5. Reduced price =/= game difficulty? You can't fly in Azeroth content (outside of cata content) when it is relevant
    6. Of course completely outdated raids will be duo-able or solo-able... It would be strange if it wasn't
    7. 25M in MC < 25M in Firelands or any other current raid which you can't do with ~60% of the possible maximum WHEN IT IS CURRENT CONTENT
    8. You know how annoying it was to level all those weapon skills? Yay, got a mace now, but can't use it yet! Again, not difficulty, just time consuming
    9. Improved ways of traveling is good as far as I'm concerned. Again, no difficulty but only a time consuming feature
    10. Why exactly would you want this? And, again just time consuming, has nothing to do with difficulty
    11. Not as long as I have had gathering professions, but I didn't have them at the start of vanilla. Might have changed among the way somewhere
    12. Yes, however this was implemented at the end of Wrath.
    13. Your point being?
    14+15 I agree, the way it currently works is stupid!

    Now, all you're points basically prove that the game requires less time in order to achieve something. But outside 5m heroic dungeons and solo (quest) content, raid content is actually a lot harder than it was back then. The only real challenge in vanilla and BC was having enough time to commit!
    The thing that Blizzard is missing is it's not about the time something takes, or the lack of it. It's about immersion and suspension of disbelief. It's the difference between an RPG and a non-RPG. Is WoW a roleplaying game where your dwarf is going to meet up with his human and elf buddies and go kick some undead ass in a dungeon while the elf alchemist can make some flasks, hopefully finding some valuable or potent magical loot along the way? Or is it a fantasy version of Halo, where you log on with your buddies and try to get that achieve or beat your previous time.

    Both of these can be perfectly fun games, but what's so frustrating is that Blizzard devs don't seem to understand that there is a difference between them.

  7. #247
    The Patient
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    "Without sounding too much of a douche, it largely boils down to "Wrath Babies" being too demanding, bringing with them an era of entitlement because of it. This has a knock on effect in Cataclysm where the content was remotely challenging"

    I'd have to agree and disagree with you at the same.

    Yes "wrath babies" did seem to be very demanding and were VERY VERY over entitled, but as far as cata content goes I thought the heroics at the beginning of Cata were amazing! They actually required some thought and planning to complete. Especially as a healer.

    Oh god healing those were a nightmare; especially if it was with a random pug tank.

  8. #248
    i dont hate new players at all what i do hate is a new player talking about how hard there class is or how faceroll there class is when they never played the original way the class was played. you know paladin's now are so different from pallies 2 expansions ago...i cant even play my pally now..the whole everything is different. it wouldnt be so bad but i still dont understand that holy power system..just seems a waste of my time.
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  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by sac View Post
    i dont hate new players at all what i do hate is a new player talking about how hard there class is or how faceroll there class is when they never played the original way the class was played. you know paladin's now are so different from pallies 2 expansions ago...i cant even play my pally now..the whole everything is different. it wouldnt be so bad but i still dont understand that holy power system..just seems a waste of my time.
    As a Hpala I actually got to like it. It however stopped my from tanking and retribution as the system doesn't feel very good there.

  10. #250
    The only time I've encountered this type of bias, was either in trade chat or on the forums. So...basically where all the bored trolls hang out. I raid with several Classic/BC hardcore raiders gone casual, I've met some long time players, and I've never had them say to me: "you started playing in Wrath! GTFO mah game!"

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Rathgar View Post
    At least in my experiences Vanilla and BC were designed in a "sink or swim" style all throughout. Most of the game was pretty challenging and you really had to try hard to get anything. 5 man's were hard, epics/rewards were hard to get, raids were brutal but awesome. All of this harshness really bred a different type of wow player back then, you were trained really quickly to have to think on your feet and pick things up much faster or nothing ever got done.
    Ok, I understand the argument, but I'm not sure I agree with it. 40-man raids weren't "harder", hell we had multiple hunters that put a dipping bird on their 1 key and walked away during various fights and we still downed the boss. I miss some of the old instances, I miss "raiding" Stratholme, I miss doing BWL with a full group and I wish I could have finished Naxx before BC, but until you hit Naxx I don't think you can really qualify things in Vanilla as more difficult, more annoying (think suppression room) yes. BC changed that a bit. There were more frustrating boss mechanics, tighter enrage timers, more damage that had to be dealt with and class stacking for raids became a big deal. I'm not certain that was a good move or that it helped the game in any way. I personally enjoyed the challenge of BC raids and content, I don't mind wiping for hours to finally get a boss down (Kael you rat b******).

    Wrath made things more accessible, but it also gave us hard modes, and frankly just more people raiding. I think the only issue that has arisen is the number of people who just don't have the ability/fortitude to sit through multiple wipes to learn a fight. This has made heroics less of a challenge and is a large part of the reason for the lack of folks able/willing to do heroics in Cata. Thing is... "oh well". Either the game is still fun for you and you keep playing, or it isn't and you quit. No reason to knock other people for their enjoyment of the game the way it is now. Remember, everyone has to start somewhere, not everyone is going to be as 'skilled' as you think you are, not everyone has a desire to spend 20hrs/week of their life or more playing the game. None of those things mean they don't deserve to enjoy the game, to get gear and to run with friends.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Byniri View Post
    First off I'm going to admit that I began in mid-Wrath (August of 2009). I know some people are automatically going to not listen to anything I say now, but you're just validating my point.


    Why is there this bias by a decent amount of veteran players (specifically those who began in Classic/BC) against anyone who began in Wrath/Cata/MoP? I seriously don't understand it. Going on to any sort of forum and saying that you began playing after BC is pretty much an invitation to be harassed and screamed at by the other people there. I've had numerous issues different times with elitist pricks who act all high and mighty JUST because they've been playing since BC or Classic.


    I really don't get it.


    They are the ones that are blamed for the sweeping changes to WoW that many "veterans" feel ruined the game.

    Prior to and including BC, gear didn't reset when an expansion came out. Top raiding gear from classic lasted just about until you started raiding in BC. In Wrath you replaced your top level raiding gear with blue drops while leveling, and Cata you replaced gear with leveling greens. That made working for gear or anything for that matter completely useless. I haven't played MoP but I'm guessing it's the same as Wrath where gear was replaced with the first green gear you saw.

    There have been too many changes to the game to make me want to come back and play again. I played for 6 years and have no interest in playing catchup. IMO an expansion shouldn't reset the game, it should expand on an existing game.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by phillipisawarlock View Post
    Because they think it makes their opinion on the game matter more than people who didn't start then. It strokes their ego other something. It's quite sad really. And this is coming from a guy who started in TBC so I know what I'm talking about .
    This pretty much. It's a sense of unfounded entitlement that we have.
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  14. #254
    I started in BC, but only as a bit part player, I stopped for a long time and only came back late in the expansion with a bunch of RL mates. I didn't know what I was doing back then, hell I had no bloody clue, but people would be more patient and willing to help me though back then, to the point where I was taken into Kara and places without the gear level at all just so I could see it and have some fun.

    Now, it feels like if you don't know something, or want some advice, newer players are scared to ask/won't ask. Is this a generational thing? who knows, but one thing is for sure, If someone asks me for help/advice, I will always be there to answer, because I was there once.
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  15. #255
    Compare it to listening to the opinion of a "new" lvl 40 player to an old 90 one the 90 will see that the new 40 will be doing everything he did but much faster and easier because the real game starts at 90 most likely they won't even get lost on sunken temple, wont have to painstalkingly look for a non shiny quest on the snow or be used to wiping days on a boss because the raid doesn't have enough elemental resist gear to be able to hit the next raid tier.

  16. #256
    OMG Sarcasm is so hard to get!!!!!!!
    It's like crossing an intersection. There's shit going on all over the place and you don't panic and act like an idiot then do you?

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by BeastmasterGuardian View Post
    Though some feel the sense of superiority, others like myself merely see the differences. We shake our heads at the masses demanding things not realizing how easy they have it. Here are some examples:

    CLASSIC/TBC > WRATH +

    1) Simple wood + Flint and tinder = camfire > /cast Campfire (no mats)
    2) Walk til level 40, spend 300g for one horse + Training > Mount at 20, everything under 10g
    3) Use Ammo and bag slot for hunters > Ammo no longer needed, hunters get 5 bags
    4) Warlock enslaves Drake and turns loose in Goldshire > Kiting takes longer and more technical
    5) No flying at all, then flight at 70 (Outlands only) > Flying at 60, extreme reduced price and fly everywhere
    6) AQ20 / 40 required 20/40 > Now needs 2-4 people tops
    7) Molten Core needed 25 people, took hours > Some Cata Raids completely soloable
    8) Had to level unarmed and weapon skills from 1 > Damage scales with level, no longer required to practice
    9) Only two ways to SW from Darnassus. Mage, or run > Boat drops you in SW instead of Menethil Harbor
    10) Mining, Skinning, Herbing had a chance to fail > Only fails when attacked
    11) Mine / Herb / Skin gave 1 of each item > New Mechanic and guild perk gives up to 7 of any item
    12) You had to LFG/LFR in town using Trade Chat > Click on LFG/LFR. Join.
    13) Grind to level 40 was running to SM daily > Grinding now done in Dungeons or questing
    14) You got a tabard AFTER you were Exalted > You bought a tabard to grind to exalted
    15) Ambassador title meant you quested everywhere > Ambassador title means you bought all the tabards


    These are just a few examples. Most of us remember the game when there was a challenge involved and we were not handed anything. These days, Blizz just continues to cater to soft ideas and makes things easier and easier. When I started playing, there were a total of 13 addons available. Now there are more than 10K. So yeah, we will get Nostalgic from time to time.
    This is a great point. This is the reason that the playerbase is as terrible as it is now. Because Blizzard has set a precedence of instant gratification and ease in an MMO whose essence is grinding and time consuming tasks. THEN they come out with MoP trying to go back to a grindy feel. How WOULDN'T that fail?

    MoP will probably see a bigger decline in subs than the start of Cata very soon.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
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  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    It's not exclusive to WoW though. YOu see this in a lot of settings: company promotion, even school clubs. Seniority is the term used. People like to feel like being there longer means something.
    This. Also if you know this is a divisive topic, why even bring it up? I mean unless people are combing through your achievements they would never even know. Sounds like you are just looking for something to argue about.
    Last edited by demoncleaner; 2012-12-14 at 06:23 PM.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by The High Druid View Post
    This amused me. You think people who play sports as a hobby don't judge each other on performance (even when they are on the same team)? Same could be said for card games, collectors, knitting, hell any hobby where more than one person does it.
    Oh, hey, surprised I caught this.
    No. They do. Point was, though, in interactions with people you don't even know the prevailing trend is toward berating people's intelligence, not performance for the sake of performance. It is much more directly associated in gameplay since nobody has to exactly use much else other than hands and brain when sitting at a computer.

    You are not a consumer paying for a product when you play sports in the same way you are when you are playing a game in the modern era. Only one person needs to buy the football, and nobody gives a shit if the kid who owned the football takes it home with him if he loses the game for his team after a long day of playing.

    The spin off of the "consumer" thing is all tangential reasoning to a convoluted argument, I admit, but if you want me to explain why sports actually are different than games I'd have to assume that you just consider your games in a more healthy point of view than those who build biases over it (which you expressly seem to have demonstrated you don't do. Good.)

    My argument is that most of those people who don't think of all things in moderation are hypocritically promoting a narrow point of view through the facade of "experience." I am not saying I think what you said isn't valid, I just think that it isn't working for any insight, because nowhere in the original post (which was a silly post, imo, but that's not important) did anybody talk about "skill" - just a very slight reference to "elitism" after talking of harassment. Not that important in the overall thread.

    That's why I tried to talk about people's personality/behavior when playing, even though I also see the association with skill in this kind of subject,...
    but I hope you just got some insight in to why I was pretending to be an asshole, is all.
    Last edited by Confirm Deny; 2012-12-14 at 07:14 PM.
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  20. #260
    Herald of the Titans Matt0193's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    You're seriously fooling yourself if you really think that players can really be categorized like that. Also: do you think that "wrath baby behaviour" is exclusive to wrath babies?
    I'm not fooling myself, because that is generally what I have seen.

    The people I started playing WoW with in Vanilla knew that they would probably never see BWL, maybe MC. They knew that it would take a fair bit of dedication getting to 60, gearing up and going for either a PvP rank or to clear whatever raid they set their mind on.
    The people that I started raiding with in BC knew that they weren't going to be breaking records getting to the top, they knew that if they stuck to it they would clear everything, because that was the raid design for BC, you progress through each raid progressively getting stronger. You couldn't skip right to the top becausr you had to work through everything and get there eventually.
    The people I raided with at the start of Wrath were sterotypical "wrath babies", they cried and whined that Naxx was too difficult, mechanics were too hard or just plain bad (KT in Naxx, Gluth in Naxx and Malygos, respectively). The people I ended up raiding with in ICC were the polar opposite, they were dedicated to clearing HC mode and didn't sit complaining or whining about something being hard. They sucked it up and did it.

    So yes, I do think players can be categorised like that. Someone who whines because it is "too hard" or "it needed to much time investment" is, to me, the definition of a Wrath Baby. That player can start in in any phase of WoW, be it Vanilla through to Mists, but because that attitude of "Give me more now" and sense of entitlement came about largely in Wrath, those people are linked to that group.
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