Thread: Holy Power

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  1. #1

    Angry Holy Power

    Maybe i'm just that grumpy guy who mumbles about "the good old days" but I seriously cannot stand "Holy Power". Really ruined the class for me. I miss the old Paladin, especially the old Retribution in PvP. Holy Power is poop IMO. Really wish they took it out.
    "Three Apples changed the World, 1st one seduced Eve, 2nd fell on Newton, and the 3rd was offered to the World half bitten by Steve Jobs."

  2. #2
    Holy power is the best thing that has happened to paladins, ever.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by silverhatred View Post
    Holy power is the best thing that has happened to paladins, ever.
    Gonna have to agree. The old FCFS felt so brainless.
    No act of kindness, no matter how small, is ever wasted.

  4. #4
    I don't think Holy Power has been a remotely bad thing.

    Inquisition, now, that's a piece of design I'm not fond of...

  5. #5
    I love holy power, clearly an improvement from preCata paladin.
    IM TEH RET! er... teh holy... or it was teh prot?!
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  6. #6
    i love holy power <3
    remember those old times where you needed to apply your seal every time after a judgement? that was seriously FML

  7. #7
    What I'm not fond of, is how much ret dps is balanced around their cooldowns.

    I can start off a fight at 120k, but end it at 68k.

    Is there no middle ground we can get here? It makes playing ret just god awful.

  8. #8
    I got used to it, it gives pretty much free heals, but never liked the idea either.

  9. #9
    I've come to like it, but it turned me off at first. I still miss being able to spam cast DS without needing to ramp up first (for searching for and unstealthing rogues and whatnot).

  10. #10
    I'm guessing most of the people who complain about Holy Power either started playing their Retribution paladin in Wrath or are recalling Vanilla and BC through rose-colored glasses. My recollection of my Retribution paladin during BC, when we were finally becoming viable, is that particularly in PvP we were a Ferrari running on fumes - we could zoom at 120 mph for about 30s, and then we were OOM and reduced to autoattacking until our mana regen caught up with us - usually at the graveyard when we respawned.

    The current design of using Holy Power to control our DPS output/primary role and our mana bar to control our offhealing ability is a good one in my opinion. I just have problems with some of the specifics, and our overreliance on long cooldowns.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Camaris View Post
    I'm guessing most of the people who complain about Holy Power either started playing their Retribution paladin in Wrath or are recalling Vanilla and BC through rose-colored glasses. My recollection of my Retribution paladin during BC, when we were finally becoming viable, is that particularly in PvP we were a Ferrari running on fumes - we could zoom at 120 mph for about 30s, and then we were OOM and reduced to autoattacking until our mana regen caught up with us - usually at the graveyard when we respawned.

    The current design of using Holy Power to control our DPS output/primary role and our mana bar to control our offhealing ability is a good one in my opinion. I just have problems with some of the specifics, and our overreliance on long cooldowns.
    To expand on this:

    In Vanilla, Seal of Command was a talent, and affectionately referred to as "Seal of Casino". It was not on-hit, it was chance-on-hit to proc %wpn dmg. It lasted 8 (10?) seconds, and was consumed by judgement. It WAS off the global, so you were able to use a judge/seal macro, but if the macro was pressed on the global, judgement would not cast, the seal would refresh and you would waste mana. Oh, and it (and all of our seals) were purgable/dispellable. Yay PVP.

    In BC, we had the same clunky system but got Seal of Truth (alliance) or Seal of Blood (horde). The 2 could not have been more different, especially in terms of ret use. I was and am Alli, and recall being relegated to Truth with it's wimpy DOT, whilst BE pala's were topping meters on Brutallus with Blood.

    Additionally, until LK, we had 3 types of judgements. Judging light cause melee attacks to heal party/raid members. This was saved only for the H Pala, as it scaled with spell power, and we did not have the sword-of-light type conversion coefficients we have now. You could judge Wisdom, giving melee/wand(lol) attacks a chance to proc mana return, or Justice (lolsnare).

    So, this made PVP fun but frustrating, trying to keep JoL up to stay healed (no WoG or AoW!), JoJ up for our weak-ass snare, and JoW up so we weren't perpetually OOM.

    LK did away with the clunky mechanics, but fostered the (still rampant) association of the ret pala player as a drooling, mouth-breather who can't hack it at a "real class/spec". FCFS was easy to learn and had a low skillcap. There WERE good, and bad rets, but the difference was not that staggering as say...good and bad hunters, mages, or DPS warriors. Sadly, this stigma has become our legacy, despite the newer and current iterations of the HoPo generation.

    TL;DR - You've come a long way, baby.
    Last edited by Nairobi; 2012-12-06 at 08:54 PM.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    In Vanilla, Seal of Command was a talent, and affectionately referred to as "Seal of Casino".
    We always called it (and it had to be pronounced just like the game show announcement) SEAL! OF! FORTUNE!

    Glad to see someone else remembers how bad the pre-HoPo mechanics were.

  13. #13
    Brewmaster Klingers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverhatred View Post
    Holy power is the best thing that has happened to paladins, ever.
    I completely disagree here. It's well-designed and some might argue even needed, but it doesn't belong to the playstyle or class mechanics anyone prior to Cata rolled a paladin for. It's fundamentally different.

    I too miss the old days. Heck, I miss the old days of seal, judge, seal, judge. That was fun.
    Knowledge is power, and power corrupts. So study hard and be evil.

  14. #14
    the nostalgic in me misses Seal of Casino, but the realist in me does not AT ALL.
    lol casual - Ret/Holy since 05

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  15. #15
    Brewmaster DieFichte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klingers View Post
    but it doesn't belong to the playstyle or class mechanics anyone prior to Cata rolled a paladin for.
    I rolled a paladin to be a warrior of light, HoPo or not doesn't make a difference. The FCFS mashing that was WotLK wasn't really anymore fun. The only thing I think was cool about pre Cata paladin was the Judgement mechanics and the refresh on CS, but even that was a clumsy piece of game mechanic that deserved to go.
    The only thing that was added and I think was bad was Avenging Wrath, not because of it's role in the paladin rotation/world, but the focus on "cd mechanics" that started out with wings. But I still like them

    (and in case you talk about holy paladin or prot, yeah running OOM (prot) was way more fun than HoPo, as it was getting raid invites for certain difficult fights, like Hyjal trash. As for holy, yeah, the old mechanics were much better, like spamming a fucking button, one)

  16. #16
    I personally am not a fan of Holy Power at all either. I see it's applications for Ret and agree that most likely the worse part about it is Inquisition. However, I F-ing hate it with Prot. I've actually loathed Prot more and more to the point where I've actually replaced my "Pally Love" for my Death Knight.

    Personally, I didn't mind Ret so much in TBC as I did other players opinions on Ret because math isn't for everyone.

    But yeah, I hate it for Prot and Holy and still fail to understand it's "need" to be added. When it first was introduced I felt like a really crappy Rogue, which doesn't bode well as I really don't like Rogues combo point system either.

    Then again, I've steadily disliked the overall reduction and drastic change to paladins over the last two expansions.

  17. #17
    Actually, Judgement of Light scaled better with Rets compared to Holy in wotlk. I remember being in Tier 7 and my light procs (the ones that healed other people when they attacked) were hitting significantly harder than anyone else's in the raid and I was ret, something like 1100-1300 vs 700-900 for other paladins. It either was because of more spellpower that a ret had (Not sure if there was a talent that gave 30% SP from AP), or light scaled with both AP and SP at the same time and they added on to each other, or Light just flat out scaled better with the amount of attack power that a ret had.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Klingers View Post
    I too miss the old days. Heck, I miss the old days of seal, judge, seal, judge. That was fun.
    How the heck was that fun?
    I first started playing a Paladin in TBC because that's when the Horde got them. Leveling was a pain in the ass because you had no skills apart from Judgment and SoC, you only got CS at level 60 (or was it even 70?). In raids you had 3 buttons to press. CS, Judgment, Seal. Ret didn't have any other dps skills because Exo had a cast time and was only usable against Undead - as did Holy Wrath.

    So, I ask you again. How was having no more than 3 skills fun? Let alone being the Blessing bitch in MC/BWL raids, which is the true old Ret system. Buffing the raid over and over and over again.

  19. #19
    Mechagnome Ridesdel's Avatar
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    I honestly miss seal twisting, when seals had a 2 min buff time, and DIDN'T get used on judge

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketsauce View Post
    What I'm not fond of, is how much ret dps is balanced around their cooldowns.

    I can start off a fight at 120k, but end it at 68k.

    Is there no middle ground we can get here? It makes playing ret just god awful.
    That's nothing. If my guild lusts at the start, I can easily get 180-220k. Same with the ele Shaman in our guild. However, at the end of the fight, I've done about 90k dps.

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