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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    thats what I get from the alliance fans here and there argument. Because a couple of blood elves betray the kirin tor, all the blood elves/sunreavers in dalaran must be guilty because of the few. Yet if some silver convent did the same thing, used dalaran the move the divine bell, they would be blameless, mostly because the alliance thinks dalaran did belong to them even when it was neutral.

    Its utter crap if people think Jaina has a right to treat every single member of the sunreavers for the crimes of just two of them. That be like blaming every single german for the actions of one tyrannical group in the second world war, or blaming every single Afghanistan for what happened in 9/11, which I know for a fact of reading threads back around the time of that event, people were blaming an entire country for the actions of a few, wanting to bomb Afghanistan because of it.
    Though the same is happening by (some) Blood Elf players blaming Garithos' actions on the whole of Alliance for years now. And will happen to Jaina's actions as well, pot and kettle.

  2. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shengar View Post
    Though the same is happening by (some) Blood Elf players blaming Garithos' actions on the whole of Alliance for years now. And will happen to Jaina's actions as well, pot and kettle.
    I agree that it would be unfair to blame the entire population of the Alliance for Garithos' actions, but I would argue that condemning a group for the actions of a person who was their Commander-in-Chief and de facto leader, is a little more viable than blaming an entire group for the actions of a few rogue, bottom-rung members.
    Still, I don't do it myself. I blame him for being the reason why up until now the blood elves have been reluctant top trust the Alliance, but I don't condemn every human as evil because one of them was a racist asshole. xD

  3. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    that's what I get from the alliance fans here and there argument. Because a couple of blood elves betray the kirin tor, all the blood elves/sunreavers in dalaran must be guilty because of the few. Yet if some silver convent did the same thing, used dalaran the move the divine bell, they would be blameless, mostly because the alliance thinks dalaran did belong to them even when it was neutral.

    Its utter crap if people think Jaina has a right to treat every single member of the sunreavers for the crimes of just two of them. That be like blaming every single german for the actions of one tyrannical group in the second world war, or blaming every single Afghanistan for what happened in 9/11, which I know for a fact of reading threads back around the time of that event, people were blaming an entire country for the actions of a few, wanting to bomb Afghanistan because of it.
    But that is what you don't see; it's a valid response if albeit not fair.

    And honestly, you can't, YOU CAN'T skim over the fact that this was the second time Sunreaver traitors screwed over the Kirin Tor and the alliance. You call alliance fanboys biased when you are just as much. Do you really expect Jaina to just say "Okay guys, this was the second time you have betrayed me, but guys, don't do it again! just lets have vanilla icecream"

    Can you truly think that Jaina is just going to let treason slide for a third time? That's either naive or dumb, but I call your bias not letting you think realistically.

    We all know that most Sunreavers are innocent, and it sucks for them, but the actions of the few DO condemn all; because they as an organization where already in the dog house, and again, Aethas incompetence to police his own people made the Sunreavers a liability for Kirin tor's intentions. You again make biased assumptions with reversing the roles, you DON'T know what would Jaina have done if the Silver Covenant stole the bell. Stop it.

    And I find all of your post about this so maddening because I normally agree with you, but in this case your faction bias is just crippling to your arguments.

    And one more thing: I try to understand the factions action's in the context of war. The Horde has done some pretty sketchy things, but they served military purposes, it was warranted, it is a part of war, it's justified in the context. So in fairness, I can only extend the same parameters to the alliance. And if we put it in relative terms, Dalaran was a walk in the park on a sunny day.

    So again, please drop the bias, it's unbecoming and doesn't do anything for the discussion of you cannot be realistic and honest.
    Last edited by TheDangerZone; 2012-12-16 at 07:16 PM. Reason: Adding another point

  4. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by GennGreymane View Post
    Jaina exacts punishment over a group that has violated dalarans neutrality, she is grouping them all together so she is bad

    garithos is a racist, entire horde bases his racism as the standard for the rest of the alliance. not considered generalizing.
    Its not just Garithos. In their starting zone, before the Blood Elves join the Horde the Alliance sends a dwarf ambassador to spy on their activities as well as an entire Night Elf encampment in the Ghostlands. This is likely a response to the Forsaken opening ties with the Blood Elves, helping to combat the Scourge Remnants in the Ghostlands by rebuilding Tranquillien but the fact remains that instead of opening friendly ties with a war-ravaged people, the Alliance chose to only take any action regarding the fate of the Sin'dorei after a Horde race decided to aid them. Four years pass between Warcraft III and World of Warcraft. You can point fingers at Onyxia's influence in Stormwind Government all you wish, but the fact remains that the Sin'dorei were left ravaged and alone for four years before ANYONE (even the Forsaken) tried to help them out.

    Lor'themar actually comments on this during the Dalaran finale, "Their bigotry and distrust is what drove the Sin'dorei into the Horde in the first place!"
    Last edited by Rhozul; 2012-12-16 at 07:19 PM.

  5. #405
    The Blood Elves are a nice race, but they don't deserve any lore development. They already got enough. A whole patch was based on them, AKA the Sunwell with Kil'Jaeden's return. The Draenei and Gnomes deserve much more love than any other race sadly, especially with how much potential they have. Gnomes are more refined than goblins, and the Draenei are some of the most powerful sorcerers and clerics in the lore, rivaling humans and elves.

    It's a shame that Blizzard neglects much more interesting races than the Horde's.

    The Blood Elves treason was terrible, but Jaina's lack of judgement is worse. A few traitors don't represent a whole race.
    Last edited by Norgannon the Dreamweaver; 2012-12-16 at 08:08 PM.

  6. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norgannon the Dreamweaver View Post
    It's a shame that Blizzard neglects much more interesting races than the Horde's.
    Well, to be fair, that can't be taken as a universal fact. It's only what you think.

    I do believe draeneis need a little bit of love, we don't hear much about them. Then again, I'm not exactly sure there's much to say.

    We don't believe in your Horde or your Alliance. We only believe in undeath.

  7. #407
    It's not supposed to be a universal fact, lol. Draenei just have more potential than any other race due to their vague culture. We hardly know anything about them, giving many ideas/possibilities for their story. (if they ever even give them one)

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Norgannon the Dreamweaver View Post
    The Blood Elves are a nice race, but they don't deserve any lore development. They already got enough. A whole patch was based on them, AKA the Sunwell with Kil'Jaeden's return. The Draenei and Gnomes deserve much more love than any other race sadly, especially with how much potential they have. Gnomes are more refined than goblins, and the Draenei are some of the most powerful sorcerers and clerics in the lore, rivaling humans and elves.

    It's a shame that Blizzard neglects much more interesting races than the Horde's.

    The Blood Elves treason was terrible, but Jaina's lack of judgement is worse. A few traitors don't represent a whole race.
    both factions need development. on the horde side, orcs are always well developed, goblins and the forsaken got a lot of development on early cata, trolls got development pre-cata and tauren got a lot of development on 5.0.

    blood elves were kind of rotting there since their minimal participation on WotLK.

    I agree gnomes and the draenei need some lore but you can't expect blizz to put it on the horde quests, can you? lol
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  9. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norgannon the Dreamweaver View Post
    It's not supposed to be a universal fact, lol. Draenei just have more potential than any other race due to their vague culture. We hardly know anything about them, giving many ideas/possibilities for their story. (if they ever even give them one)
    Well, the way you put it, it's how I take it.

    I'm pretty sure some people believe draeneis don't need any lore development !

    We don't believe in your Horde or your Alliance. We only believe in undeath.

  10. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    I agree gnomes and the draenei need some lore but you can't expect blizz to put it on the horde quests, can you? lol
    It wouldn't be the first time *cough* Worgen .

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Asheriah View Post
    Well, the way you put it, it's how I take it.

    I'm pretty sure some people believe draeneis don't need any lore development !
    Well you're looking at it wrong. It isn't a fact, but we have more proof/evidence that the draenei deserve more love than any other race. Draenei have hardly any cultural significance on Azeroth as opposed to most other playable races. They're from a world unknown to us in so many ways. They are the only truly immortal playable race. They are among the greatest casters. There is so much more vague and interesting things to them. Of course this is based on my opinion, but I am using hard evidence to support it.

  12. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    It wouldn't be the first time *cough* Worgen .
    That was such a slap-in-the-face oversight. >.<
    They obviously got carried away with the revamping and couldn't figure out how to tell the progressing Worgen story for Alliance questers as well. =I

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    both factions need development. on the horde side, orcs are always well developed, goblins and the forsaken got a lot of development on early cata, trolls got development pre-cata and tauren got a lot of development on 5.0.

    blood elves were kind of rotting there since their minimal participation on WotLK.

    I agree gnomes and the draenei need some lore but you can't expect blizz to put it on the horde quests, can you? lol
    Im not expecting anything. All I am saying is that from a lore-game perspective the Draenei need more love than any other race. Blood Elves got a lot in BC. Draenei got nothing in BC.

  14. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norgannon the Dreamweaver View Post
    Well you're looking at it wrong. It isn't a fact, but we have more proof/evidence that the draenei deserve more love than any other race. Draenei have hardly any cultural significance on Azeroth as opposed to most other playable races. They're from a world unknown to us in so many ways. They are the only truly immortal playable race. They are among the greatest casters. There is so much more vague and interesting things to them. Of course this is based on my opinion, but I am using hard evidence to support it.
    The problem is that all this evidence isn't evidence in the eyes of everyone. I'm not looking at it wrong, I am only objective.

    Like I said, I believe there's a need for draenei lore development, but not everyone do so.

    We don't believe in your Horde or your Alliance. We only believe in undeath.

  15. #415
    Ah man I love the blood elves Hate that I play Alliance and miss out on all this awesome stuff though ;(

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by GennGreymane View Post
    glad some 1 posted this, I find those types of players to be the most annoying forum posters.
    It's a game. There are no "horde fanboys and apologists.". There is no divide between players, and nobody is hypocritical. Everything is opinion. It's a game. People are not horde or alliance. Their characters are.*And their characters aren't making these posts.

    I find people that say there are blizz apologists and fanboys to be the most annoying types of players and forums posters. They often live in the game and take it way too seriously.
    Perfect example of why "community" forums are poisonous to the health of a development team. These developers are wasting hundreds of hours trying to stem the tide of incessant bitchery that would never, ever abate so long as these entitled, unfortunate human beings don't get their way.

  17. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baiyn View Post
    That was such a slap-in-the-face oversight. >.<
    They obviously got carried away with the revamping and couldn't figure out how to tell the progressing Worgen story for Alliance questers as well. =I
    It's kinda why I feel they should make another one of these story driven quest lines in Gilneas.

    It gives the Forsaken some story, I really can't imagine them being on Pandaria without them making it worse for the Horde given how their antics have for the most part been mostly unsupervised.

    Not to mention how I believe it was Metzen or Kosak mentioned how implementing Worgen and Gilnean architecture was hard. So why not just go back there then as that will solve two issues. The only problem would be turning parts of a phased Gilneas into an Alliance hub as the zone is just unused after the starting experience. Although the problem ofc is no Horde equivalent.
    I don't want to see Gilneas be an inaccessible place for Alliance, but once it is I would imagine it would make Horde players naturally a little jealous.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2012-12-16 at 08:56 PM.

  18. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norgannon the Dreamweaver View Post
    Im not expecting anything. All I am saying is that from a lore-game perspective the Draenei need more love than any other race. Blood Elves got a lot in BC. Draenei got nothing in BC.
    Except for the Shatar, Aldor, Shattered sun Offensive etc. the draenei got lore in BC but it has been stagnating since then. The race that would need most development would be gnomes, no other race has so little lore to them.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Except for the Shatar, Aldor, Shattered sun Offensive etc. the draenei got lore in BC but it has been stagnating since then. The race that would need most development would be gnomes, no other race has so little lore to them.
    Draenei hardly got anything in BC compared to the elves in any other expansion. Gnomes actually got a revolution while the Draenei did nothing. Gnomes need a lot of love, but not as much as draenei.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-16 at 08:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Asheriah View Post
    The problem is that all this evidence isn't evidence in the eyes of everyone. I'm not looking at it wrong, I am only objective.

    Like I said, I believe there's a need for draenei lore development, but not everyone do so.
    You're being too objective, lol.

  20. #420
    Over 9000! Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norgannon the Dreamweaver View Post
    Draenei hardly got anything in BC compared to the elves in any other expansion. Gnomes actually got a revolution while the Draenei did nothing. Gnomes need a lot of love, but not as much as draenei.[COLOR="red"]
    In overall lore we know more about the Draenei than the gnomes and that is pretty sad.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

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