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  1. #561
    Quote Originally Posted by Asmalya View Post
    No because defending stuff to keep a balance is fine with the Kirin tors view of neutral. Outside of that its not so much for helping the alliance secure the bell as to make sure Garrosh doesnt get it. And it should be in the intrest of ALL factions on azeroth that garrosh doesnt get anymore powerful artifacts which he can mess with.
    Helping on side of the conflict breaks neutrality, if you think only one side can uphold a certain balance then you should support them and not talk about neutrality.


    I don't know what the other Kirin Tor members thought when they put Jaina as their new Leader, but putting someone in charge who lost an entire City during this War is not the right leader if you want to remain neutral.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfieone View Post
    Bottom line: Don't want none, don't start none. The Sunreavers started some. And they got the smackdown for it. If the Sin'dorai respond by siding with this thief and lair Sunreaver, and cuddle up to Garrosh despite everyone knowing they're just going to be cannon fodder for his reckless wars as a result - that's the fate they choose.
    It's not about what the Sunreavers did, a few of them helped Garrosh and now the entire organization pays the price.

    It's about that Jaina wanted to keep the Kirin Tor Neutral, yet she helped the Alliance to keep the Horde out of Darnassus, as the Leader of a Neutral Party you should keep your Head out of this conflict, or at least not directly influence it's battles.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2012-12-21 at 08:29 PM.
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  2. #562
    Bloodsail Admiral Aeula's Avatar
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    In my opinion varian should have imprisoned and/or executed jaina for treason and continued his negotiations with the blood elves, if they'd have seen that he didn't aprove of jaina's actions and was willing to make her and those involved pay for it the blood elves would have probably joined the alliance in a heartbeat, but instead he gave jaina a 'Get out of jail free card' due to her connections with his son, I hope one day jaina is brought to justice, preferably by the blood elves but if by the alliance it'd have a good feeling too.

    I look forward to slaughtering kirin tor in 5.2!

  3. #563
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sindrasa View Post
    In my opinion varian should have imprisoned and/or executed jaina for treason and continued his negotiations with the blood elves, if they'd have seen that he didn't aprove of jaina's actions and was willing to make her and those involved pay for it the blood elves would have probably joined the alliance in a heartbeat, but instead he gave jaina a 'Get out of jail free card' due to her connections with his son, I hope one day jaina is brought to justice, preferably by the blood elves but if by the alliance it'd have a good feeling too.

    I look forward to slaughtering kirin tor in 5.2!
    What Jaina did was the right thing to do, it was sloppy carried out, but she had to act, the sunreavers couldn't be trusted anymore.
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  4. #564
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    It's about that Jaina wanted to keep the Kirin Tor Neutral, yet she helped the Alliance to keep the Horde out of Darnassus, as the Leader of a Neutral Party you should keep your Head out of this conflict, or at least not directly influence it's battles.
    Despite her speech, Jaina is decidely not 100% neutral
    I mean at the end of Tides of War she proclaims her desire to see Garrosh removed from power

    Either way, she didnt Purge the Sunreavers for a retarded reason, but it was still not the most civil and restrained reactions, which was not helped by the long time tension between the Silver Covenant and the Blood Elves
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  5. #565
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    What Jaina did was the right thing to do, it was sloppy carried out, but she had to act, the sunreavers couldn't be trusted anymore.
    or, she, a woman who lost her mind to a bombing, thought her actions were justified without any contemplation.

    Its already been made clear, why should Jaina be allowed to be given a break for her actions against the sunreavers, and yet characters like Sylvanas should be condemned for purging the land she claims of any human influence, or the orcs purging there lands from any invaders.

    You can't justify one's actions and demonize the other, its bias to do so. Either all are guilty or none are.
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  6. #566
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    or, she, a woman who lost her mind to a bombing, thought her actions were justified without any contemplation.

    Its already been made clear, why should Jaina be allowed to be given a break for her actions against the sunreavers, and yet characters like Sylvanas should be condemned for purging the land she claims of any human influence, or the orcs purging there lands from any invaders.

    You can't justify one's actions and demonize the other, its bias to do so. Either all are guilty or none are.
    The decision was sound, though morally wrong, the sunreavers were infiltrated by horde agents and couldn't be trusted anymore, so they had to leave the city one way or another. It was a tough decision, but it had to be done.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  7. #567
    Quote Originally Posted by Sindrasa View Post
    In my opinion varian should have imprisoned and/or executed jaina for treason and continued his negotiations with the blood elves, if they'd have seen that he didn't aprove of jaina's actions and was willing to make her and those involved pay for it the blood elves would have probably joined the alliance in a heartbeat, but instead he gave jaina a 'Get out of jail free card' due to her connections with his son, I hope one day jaina is brought to justice, preferably by the blood elves but if by the alliance it'd have a good feeling too.

    I look forward to slaughtering kirin tor in 5.2!
    Varian cannot do that, for Jaina, when the 'purge' occurred, she was (and still is) the leader of the Kirin Tor. Basically, the leader of a small nation, which, cannot be stressed enough, was NOT part of the Alliance when the purge happened, so Varian has no authority at all to imprison Jaina (or execute her, as you want). The Kirin Tor only joined the Alliance AFTER the purge.

    Jaina didn't get a 'get out of jail free card' because there was no reason to put her in jail. There is nothing Jaina has to answer for. The purge (although sloppily carried out during a moment of intense anger) was completely justified. Twice the Sunreavers (or, to be fair, a representative of the Sunreavers) broke the Kirin Tor neutrality, therefore they've forsaken their right to remain in Dalaran.

    OBS: For people crying out saying that both the issues of breaking neutrality were perpetrated by individuals, not the whole group, it must be reminded that it is the full responsibility of the head of the group to keep their group in check. Not only twice the group failed to keep themselves in check, but also twice failed to bring the perpetrator to justice. So, yes, their removal of Dalaran was completely justified.

  8. #568
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    OBS: For people crying out saying that both the issues of breaking neutrality were perpetrated by individuals, not the whole group, it must be reminded that it is the full responsibility of the head of the group to keep their group in check. Not only twice the group failed to keep themselves in check, but also twice failed to bring the perpetrator to justice. So, yes, their removal of Dalaran was completely justified.
    The entire council failed to be honest, the Sunreavers are not only Aethas responsibility, since they were members of the Kirin Tor and as such subjects of the entire council.
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  9. #569
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    You both have extremely flawed logic, because according to you, everything comes back to the leader for any actions committed. I could just as well say the reason for the necromancy that happened across lordearon was due to the alliance not keeping watch on one of there own, kel'thzard, so its the fault of the alliance that so much misery occurred there. I can't be wrong since I'm using the same logic as you are.

    But then alliance players and there bias won't see it that way, they would sooner say its the fault of the horde for whatever reason they can cook up.

    This is why there arguments are so petty.
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  10. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The entire council failed to be honest, the Sunreavers are not only Aethas responsibility, since they were members of the Kirin Tor and as such subjects of the entire council.
    Yes, they're kind of a part of the Kirin Tor. But, in truth, they are a FACTION of the Kirin Tor, and, as such, have their own leader, who is Aethas. Aethas, no matter if he is part of the Council or not, has the responsibility to not only answer for his people, but also ensure his group follows Kirin Tor rules.

  11. #571
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    You both have extremely flawed logic, because according to you, everything comes back to the leader for any actions committed. I could just as well say the reason for the necromancy that happened across lordearon was due to the alliance not keeping watch on one of there own, kel'thzard, so its the fault of the alliance that so much misery occurred there. I can't be wrong since I'm using the same logic as you are.

    But then alliance players and there bias won't see it that way, they would sooner say its the fault of the horde for whatever reason they can cook up.

    This is why there arguments are so petty.
    Actually if Terenas had listened to the Kirin Tor and imposed Quarantine, the plague might not have been as devastating as it was, but that is beside the point. A leader has a responsibility for all of his/her subjects and has to ensure their safety. If a leader realizes that some of his/her subjects cannot be trusted and threaten the safety of the majority, they have to act, monitoring their moves etc. and if they eventually step out of line they need to be dealt with. The council failed to monitor the sunreavers and get the guilty ones out of the organization and because of that many innocent suffered.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-01 at 05:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Yes, they're kind of a part of the Kirin Tor. But, in truth, they are a FACTION of the Kirin Tor, and, as such, have their own leader, who is Aethas. Aethas, no matter if he is part of the Council or not, has the responsibility to not only answer for his people, but also ensure his group follows Kirin Tor rules.
    The council has to ensure every Kirin Tor member follows their rules, that includes the sunreavers.
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  12. #572
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    had jaina not done this

    patch 5.2

    the sunreavers put laxatives in the tea of all gilneas
    the sunreavers find yet another super weapon and attack ironforge from dalarans portals
    the sunreavers switch all sunscreen with mayo
    the sunreavers hide king varians teddy bear

    sunreavers get another slap on wrist

    5.3
    the sunreavers post nude photos of prience auduin all over org
    the sunreavers find yet another super weapon and attack goldshire on moonguard with it

    the sunreavers are now heros

  13. #573
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Actually if Terenas had listened to the Kirin Tor and imposed Quarantine, the plague might not have been as devastating as it was, but that is beside the point. A leader has a responsibility for all of his/her subjects and has to ensure their safety. If a leader realizes that some of his/her subjects cannot be trusted and threaten the safety of the majority, they have to act, monitoring their moves etc. and if they eventually step out of line they need to be dealt with. The council failed to monitor the sunreavers and get the guilty ones out of the organization and because of that many innocent suffered.[COLOR="red"]
    Yours is such a badly mixed message. One hand your saying 'leaders should be held accountable for the actions of those in there faction', and in another breath your saying its right to pass the buck and condemn those below them for the actions of others.

    Double standards much?
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  14. #574
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Yours is such a badly mixed message. One hand your saying 'leaders should be held accountable for the actions of those in there faction', and in another breath your saying its right to pass the buck and condemn those below them for the actions of others.

    Double standards much?

    if an orc farts and it smells. its garrosh's fault
    if the sunreavers find azeroths equiv of a nuke in dalaran, takes, and uses it on an alliance city. its there fault not the higher ups

    forum logic

  15. #575
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Varian cannot do that, for Jaina, when the 'purge' occurred, she was (and still is) the leader of the Kirin Tor. Basically, the leader of a small nation, which, cannot be stressed enough, was NOT part of the Alliance when the purge happened, so Varian has no authority at all to imprison Jaina (or execute her, as you want). The Kirin Tor only joined the Alliance AFTER the purge.

    Jaina didn't get a 'get out of jail free card' because there was no reason to put her in jail. There is nothing Jaina has to answer for. The purge (although sloppily carried out during a moment of intense anger) was completely justified. Twice the Sunreavers (or, to be fair, a representative of the Sunreavers) broke the Kirin Tor neutrality, therefore they've forsaken their right to remain in Dalaran.

    OBS: For people crying out saying that both the issues of breaking neutrality were perpetrated by individuals, not the whole group, it must be reminded that it is the full responsibility of the head of the group to keep their group in check. Not only twice the group failed to keep themselves in check, but also twice failed to bring the perpetrator to justice. So, yes, their removal of Dalaran was completely justified.
    While the kirin tor was neutral at the time, jaina, the silver covenant AND the alliance troops who where sent to dalaran without varians concent are NOT neutral.

    The kirin tor had barely anything to do with the purge, the only member who did was jaina herself who is not neutral even if her nation is.

    Also 'Removal' is a huge understatement, it was a massacre, the only reason she took a few prisoners was probably to torture them for information, atleast the deaths of everyone at tharamoore was instant.

    She should have negotiated a removal, not outright attack them.
    Last edited by Aeula; 2013-01-01 at 05:53 PM.

  16. #576
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    Quote Originally Posted by GennGreymane View Post
    if an orc farts and it smells. its garrosh's fault
    if the sunreavers find azeroths equiv of a nuke in dalaran, takes, and uses it on an alliance city. its there fault not the higher ups

    forum logic
    Jaina was a much a twat for what she did to the sunreavers as a group as what Garrosh did to theramore with the bomb. Two wrongs will never make a right.
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  17. #577
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Jaina was a much a twat for what she did to the sunreavers as a group as what Garrosh did to theramore with the bomb. Two wrongs will never make a right.
    but can u equate them in reality

    garrosh had a city blown off the face of the earth along with who knows how many civilian casualties, and the death of a great hero the man with the red mane

    jaina was arresting sunreavers to be questioned.

  18. #578
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    Quote Originally Posted by GennGreymane View Post
    but can u equate them in reality

    garrosh had a city blown off the face of the earth along with who knows how many civilian casualties, and the death of a great hero the man with the red mane

    jaina began to force sunreavers, many who knew nothing of the war or the theft of the bell, into imprisonment, and allowed her pet high elf to back stab the blood elves and provent them from escaping the city.
    Wanted to correct you there, no sense ignoring facts here.
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  19. #579
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GennGreymane View Post
    if an orc farts and it smells. its garrosh's fault
    if the sunreavers find azeroths equiv of a nuke in dalaran, takes, and uses it on an alliance city. its there fault not the higher ups

    forum logic
    They would be both at fault, the leader, who was unable to deal with the problem and the subject that caused the misery.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  20. #580
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Wanted to correct you there, no sense ignoring facts here.
    does dalaran have a bill of rights? i dont think so

    imprisoned till all is sorted out is actually a lenient sentence in the time period wow got its influence from.

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