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  1. #1

    Question Why is Sub not viable?

    I was kind of curious why subtlety is absent from PvE right now. I thought the only thing that ever really held it back was the behind the target requirement that wasn't always possible. I can't think of a boss right now where that is really a problem. Are its numbers just exceedingly low right now compared to the other 2 specs? Is it because of rogue's early expansion low energy regen?

  2. #2
    Sub isn't horrible. It just doesn't have a niche. Assassination does better single target and AOE. Combat does better single target and cleaves. Pair that with the annoying positional requirements, and there isn't a whole lot of reason to spec it currently.

    I expect Sub to scale really well in subsequent tiers, but as for now, it just isn't there yet.

  3. #3
    From what I gather:
    - The sims show it at the bottom
    - In practice, it seems to be under performing
    - The spec itself is far too impractical for actual use, due to mechanical reasons
    - The spec lacks a clear advantage over the others; It has no particular strength whatsoever, really

    Overall, it's just Assassination, but harder, more punishing, less practical, and generates numbers that aren't worth the added effort. What was great about the spec in Cata, was the high on-demand burst the standard rotation provided, due to hard hitting Backstabs and the high crit chances/damage we had through talents. The spec lost that aspect, and was turned into a standard "weak rotation-high sustain" spec, just like Assassination and Combat, it was thus stripped of its uniqueness and made fairly useless.

  4. #4
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    The lack of baked-in crits are hurting it quite a bit. A lot more damage is from SV/ rupture than was in Cata, espically since hemo no longer applies SV. The CP builders hit like wet noodles and a lot more damage has gone into finishers.

    I think it is the lack of crit the most, it makes ambush feel like a backstab that applies FW now, not high damage hits like it used to.
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  5. #5
    I still like the spec, especially due to energetic recovery
    However the other posters have summed it up well

  6. #6
    Sub isn't horrible. It just doesn't have a niche.
    I think so as well. It's more than viable, it's simply performing under the other two.

  7. #7
    Blizz thought it was a nice idea to put the last nail on sub's coffin by nerfing SV from 20% to 16%

  8. #8
    Maybe i havent read everything about the Spec in MoP but punishing ? What exactly is punishing now? it feels like Combat with Daggers

  9. #9
    pushing for a spec would mean you cant watch TV while playing it. 50% more work for 5% less dps

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by eijin View Post
    pushing for a spec would mean you cant watch TV while playing it. 50% more work for 5% less dps
    This^ plus u're forced to stay behind boss and it's not always possible/advisable (sha of fear, yulon...), plus has the worst aoe of all three specs

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by eijin View Post
    pushing for a spec would mean you cant watch TV while playing it. 50% more work for 5% less dps
    This, to a degree.
    - The punishment mainly comes into play when you have to deal with Sanguinary Vein. The mechanic itself is major pain in the ass of any dps. Rupture dropping for a split second results in a dps loss; swapping targets forces you to apply an immediate Rupture, resulting in dps loss; Anything you do that would result in a loss of Rupture uptime, really, results in significant dps loss.
    - Then there's the risk of not being behind an enemy, forcing you to waste GCD's or energy because of your inability to Backstab.
    - There's the annoying min/max'ing you need to keep an eye on that is the Hemorrhage bleed.
    - The min/max'ing of having to use stealth as an "offensive cooldown" via Vanish/Premeditation.
    ...

    Just to name a few reasons off the top of my head. There's a lot of min/maxing involved, there are lots of details you have to wrap your head around, and you'll ultimately still under perform, despite having to work with all of the above.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-01 at 05:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by D3athsting View Post
    This^ plus u're forced to stay behind boss and it's not always possible/advisable (sha of fear, yulon...), plus has the worst aoe of all three specs
    Not entirely true, I think? Due to the mastery and Crimson Tempest, it pulls ahead of Combat in the AOE department, if I'm not mistaken. Cleaving is something else, if that's what you were going for.

  12. #12
    The other posters have gone over the issues sub has, but if it brought rocking single target we'd still be willing to dance with it. At this gear level, sub's single target is only so-so. As we get more agi, it will have a niche again, even if we are married to SV.

  13. #13
    Would be cool if it got a seed of corruption/soul swap type mechanic for spreading ruptures on multiple targets.

    I am wondering if the SV nerf to 16% has anything to do with the scaling of the spec, hard to say for sure really. Blizzard have a lot more data than we do.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeast View Post
    Would be cool if it got a seed of corruption/soul swap type mechanic for spreading ruptures on multiple targets.

    I am wondering if the SV nerf to 16% has anything to do with the scaling of the spec, hard to say for sure really. Blizzard have a lot more data than we do.
    If they did it because of scaling that would be retarded why should sub be weak for whole tier if it needed a scaling nerf do it when it gets to high not before everyone is even 90.

  15. #15
    It's the same situation that Assassination had in 4.3; it's not that the spec doesn't work (it actually might pull ahead of Combat single-target on Gara'jal and Feng), it's just that it doesn't bring as much damage or AoE potential as the other two specs.

    ...actually, when I put it like that, it kind of IS like saying the spec doesn't work.
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  16. #16
    Bloodsail Admiral Sturmbringe's Avatar
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    I am playing Assa after 7 years playing Combat for PvE and Assa/Sub for PvP. I have got a single spec for PvE and PvP now, Assa. Dual spec is useless afaiac.

    A lot of good feedback has been given to Blizzard as to why Sub sucks both in PvE and PvP, and Blizzard has chosen to ignore it. I understand Blizzard do NOT want you to play Sub neither in PvE nor PvP and they want you to raid with Assa mainspec and Combat offspec for cleave bosses.

    They also want you to PvE and PvP as Assa i.e. same spec. It's their game after all, but their dev desicions on Rogues suck.
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  17. #17
    Would be great to have each spec have its own type of AoE really.

    mut can stand on its own through poison spreading. they would still envenom, but FoK would be the bulk of their damage (it spreading posions as it does)
    Combat would have something that relates to MG, maybe simply give it a chance to proc off FoK?
    Sub would make full use of CT, allow it to spread SV and benifit from that, probably increase the damage of it.

    All 3 specs would have a unique form of AoE damage from eachother (given rotations might be similar), all benifiting from their mastery as well.

  18. #18
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    Pulling some fun numbers with Shuriken Toss still, especially with the buff. It's my go to spec if I have to run from the boss at any time.
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  19. #19
    I dont really see a boss where that would be worth it (lowering your DPS while on boss to do more DPS when away). garalon tanking as well as moving between adds on will both have a decent bit of "away time", but still more than enough uptime where i'd honestly say anticipation by itself would still be worth it, much less dropping down to sub.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by eijin View Post
    I dont really see a boss where that would be worth it (lowering your DPS while on boss to do more DPS when away). garalon tanking as well as moving between adds on will both have a decent bit of "away time", but still more than enough uptime where i'd honestly say anticipation by itself would still be worth it, much less dropping down to sub.
    To be fair, the dps difference isn't as steep as some would have you think. My rogue is now my alt, so a bit of fun is always welcome there
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