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  1. #1

    Instant Cast vs CC vs Interrupts

    After WOTLK an arms race began between interrupts, cc and instant cast. For some reason blizzard decided that every melee needed an interrupt. It's hard enough to dodge one kick, let alone 2 with melee on you. More interrupts lead to casters falling behind due to a lack of casting. Now caster have more instant cast to keep up on damage. At the same time more cc was added to the game. The only way to fix the problem is to give up cc, interupts and instant cast (or lower their power). What would YOU give up to help fix the problem?

    As a shadow priest I would give up psyfiend (I don't need that much fear) and shift power from instant mind spikes in a casted spell like VT.

  2. #2
    I as a heal druid could easily live with Typhoon being single target, Cyclone limited to one target at any time, and/or mass roots removed. Since our only instant heals would be HoTs (aside from the speccable instant every 2mins, and HoT-to-Insta also already on a decent CD), I'd be a little more hesitant to make cuts there.

  3. #3
    Warlock's Blood Fear
    Rogue's macestun
    Druid's instant cyclones
    Priest's Psy Fiend
    Warrior's Shockwave
    Mage's Instant deep Freeze/Instant RoF
    Paladin's AoE blind/repentence
    Monk's silence on interrupt (oops, missed my interrupt! nvm silenced)

    These all just need to be flat out removed. I'm a warlock myself and I'm sick of blood fear, along with all the other instant CC and millions of interrupts.

    Then there's all the instant burst heals.

    Bring back 0-1 interrupts and 0-2 CCs per class. Bring back healers and casters having to cast. No CC should be instant bar a very select few (melee range CC mostly).
    Last edited by Tya; 2012-12-11 at 11:29 PM.

  4. #4
    generally no ccing abiltity should be instant, exept it is on a very long cd and has use as a survival cd (example would be Priest fear / old warlocks howl lof terror).
    cc should be avoidable, by either interrupting or losing.
    U cant doge ns cyclones. u cant doge pom-rof, sheeps or even a nova out of mage stealth. Ns cyclone should be not alowed.

    Feral instant cyclone , insta hex and insta fear from wls, all those things should have casttimes, in any given situation.
    Make the ns talents not work with cc casts, only with healing /dmging spells.

    I think that any situation where u cannot avoid getting cced by yourself theoretically means a mistake in the gamedesign and its mechanics.

    Also dmg ing instants should only hit for like 10 % -20 % of what a castet spell of the same school does (frobo hits for 60 k crit, icelance hits for 6 k ),
    so that instants will become what they once were:

    a instant, very expensive in mana / resources, LONG cd and used to get a emergency peel or a killingblow on a extremely low target, that bareley survived a execute spell.

    The worst shit in wow pvp was the invention of spammable instants (ICELANCE).

    Another problem that follows all the cc is that DRs have to be changed in the nowadays game. I think the best and only bearable solution is having every cc school dr with each other.
    getting 3 ccs , no matter how long / which school, means becoming immune to any form of cc (stun, fear blind and so on) for a given time.(5 seconds or something)

    so that there starts some thinking in using those cc abilitys
    (about hmm if i stun this guy now the 3rd time we will be immune to anything for 5 sec, meaning he can easily heal himself up,or so i better wait for dr to go away, because this guy might go all out when immune with his burst...)

    , and not randomly pumping silences and stuns and slows and roots into one person until it is dead,
    because thats what happening nowadays.

    Its hard to survive 3 silences, 4 stuns , several novas against lets say rogue / mage or mage / spriest opener.
    they will flat kill someone while silenced stunned. if u use trinket, u can expect to have the next silence or stun within a few milliseconds.
    This is wat i say as a resto shaman, at 1900 at eu-stormscale.
    I confess, i have never ever survived a rogue opening on me in 3vs3, although my mates try to peel as hard as they can. No matter if it was a spriest, a mage, a bmhunter with the rogue. I just exploded, with 9 k reselience, in less than 10 seconds. i get garrotte garotte stun stun stun silence dead. In which of this silences / stuns i use trinket, doesnt matter at all. i got one global to use the moment i use trinket. I either use tranq totem , or if its not a mage( meaning im not surrounded by a rof), i use spirit link.

    I have no ideas how other healers survive such a opener, but i as shaman always die in it. I have played resto shaman in pvp pretty long, and i never felt so easily killable like now. not even in s6/7, where as a shaman i was bladestorm target nr 1...

  5. #5
    I would gladly give up shockwave.
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  6. #6
    Melee has already kinda given up their interrupts, 10s to 15s change was huge and makes fakecasting just so much more powerful.

  7. #7
    As a hunter there isn't much really... we've had the same since wotlk, but i guess the new narrow escape? it makes warriors without freedom very angry lol

  8. #8
    lol it looks like gc read my post.

    PvP CC Feedback
    First things first, I want to make sure you’re aware that the information below reflects both short and long-term design considerations on our end. This isn’t all on the table for patch 5.2 for a number of reasons.

    To make this clear right off the bat: This shift of instant casts back to cast times is not just targeted at crowd control. We also wish to start moving some heals back to having a cast time rather than being instant. That said, we’re not necessarily planning on overhauling many of the spells and abilities that have been instant for a long time now, such as Hand of Justice. We’re looking at some of the big outliers that we see brought up a lot, which are instant-cast, area-of-effect abilities like Blinding Light, or Presence of Mind in combination with Ring of Frost.

    We think that there are too many of these AoE CC spells at this time, especially instant AoE CC, which can create some frustrating gameplay experiences. Some other particular crowd-control effects that are on our radar are abilities like Blood Fear, which we’re considering redesigning altogether, and Predatory Swiftness in combination with Cyclone, which feels virtually impossible to counter.

    While we are talking about cc what about having some more spells share DR with each other. A pala can repentance/blinding light/ hammer. No Dr at all. Why is it that fear and blind share a DR and polly/fear and cycone dont? and many more examples like this.
    We’re looking at diminishing returns for CC right now as a possible way to help with CC in PvP combat, but it’s the type of gameplay overhaul that can be risky to implement in the middle of an expansion cycle if the change is too drastic. We are, however, taking a look right now at the DRs within particular classes, as well as special snowflakes like Cyclone. Either way, the design discussion will undoubtedly continue! (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Tya View Post
    Warlock's Blood Fear
    Rogue's macestun
    Druid's instant cyclones
    Priest's Psy Fiend
    Warrior's Shockwave
    Mage's Instant deep Freeze/Instant RoF
    Paladin's AoE blind/repentence
    Monk's silence on interrupt (oops, missed my interrupt! nvm silenced)

    These all just need to be flat out removed. I'm a warlock myself and I'm sick of blood fear, along with all the other instant CC and millions of interrupts.

    Then there's all the instant burst heals.

    Bring back 0-1 interrupts and 0-2 CCs per class. Bring back healers and casters having to cast. No CC should be instant bar a very select few (melee range CC mostly).
    Problem now is that if a healer does have to cast, there is so much pushback its likely that 8 casts out of 10 they will be interrupted. As you also mentioned you can't forget blanket silences where it doesn't matter if they hit a cast bar or not, you still get silenced, which makes juking seem pointless (I know it isn't, but after making three melee miss their interrupts only to be blanket silenced is just stupid)

    That on its own makes instant heals less of an issue (can't cast an instant when silenced) and more of a necessity because any brain dead monkey can interrupt anyone now even if they don't have a 100% silence (like a mages improved counter-spell)

    It all just seems out of control on the cc and damage end more so then on the healing end. Then again, I'm a healer, so I may be biased a bit.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-12 at 12:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    I would gladly give up shockwave.
    Honestly I'd settle for simply a lower stun time on shockwave tbh
    Last edited by Theholypally; 2012-12-12 at 12:13 PM.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBmNL...ature=youtu.be (#1 SSB Gold run on Bleeding Hollow)
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  10. #10
    Silences should be included among the changes as casted CC. Blanket silence is more crippling to a caster than disarm is to melee. Melee is usually the aggressor in which they are pursuing while Melee might temporarily not be able to use attack abilities their mobility abilities are unaffected whereas for casters they are.

    Silence for casters for all intents and purposes is very much like Hex where you can move but can't do anything else.

    Silence should be put up on the list of things that need to be changed to a cast time. (I am looking at you Strangulate)

  11. #11
    Edit: NVM the link, didn't see it was on MMO-C aswell.

    I myself as holy paladin wouldn't mind getting AoE Blind removed.
    You have to give up your precious positioning with it. Positioning and staying defensive was always
    what a paladin was about. Either get rid of repentance in tier 2 or revamp the whole tier and make FoJ baseline with a 45 sec CD.
    The increased range is really ok if you don't have the AoE blind anymore.
    The slow should then also be baseline for Ret and Prot.
    Then make tier 2 either about magic damage reduce or about CC avoidance.
    Last edited by noepeen; 2012-12-12 at 06:12 PM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Revik View Post
    Silences should be included among the changes as casted CC. Blanket silence is more crippling to a caster than disarm is to melee. Melee is usually the aggressor in which they are pursuing while Melee might temporarily not be able to use attack abilities their mobility abilities are unaffected whereas for casters they are.

    Silence for casters for all intents and purposes is very much like Hex where you can move but can't do anything else.

    Silence should be put up on the list of things that need to be changed to a cast time. (I am looking at you Strangulate)
    You want silences to have a cast time, because the silence with the longest CD, highest cost and probably hardest to land on a cast, annoys you?

    Makes perfect sense.

    Also, how would you interupt the enemy silence if your own silence has a cast time aswell?

  13. #13
    as i mage i whould give up deepfreeze, ring of frost and brainfreeze procs.

    and i think insta cyclones, spyfiend, shockwave, maim, smoke cloud, repentance, blinding light, the root hunters disengage gives, rebuke, blood fear and strangulate should be removed.
    also all silences should only have 4 sec duration and a minimum of 25sec cd.

    i also think pvp power should be changed into healing reduction rather then the reatrded dmgbuff it is now (pvp don't need even more burst then it already have).

  14. #14
    High Overlord calimmacil's Avatar
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    Get your dirty hands of my pve shockwave. Shockwave as is is a crucial part of prot warriors.
    And since this is the pvp section, there are things that need attention, shockwave is NOT among them.

    tip: l2 not stack all together

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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tya View Post
    Rogue's macestun
    Umm, not to nitpick here, but I'm fairly certain that Rogues have not had a mace stun effect for a VERY long time.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    as i mage i whould give up deepfreeze, ring of frost and brainfreeze procs.

    and i think insta cyclones, spyfiend, shockwave, maim, smoke cloud, repentance, blinding light, the root hunters disengage gives, rebuke, blood fear and strangulate should be removed.
    also all silences should only have 4 sec duration and a minimum of 25sec cd.

    i also think pvp power should be changed into healing reduction rather then the reatrded dmgbuff it is now (pvp don't need even more burst then it already have).
    I wouldn't touch repentance or strangulate. For me, the problem abilities are blood fear, imp spell lock, psyfiend, pom ring, imp cs, ps clone, silencing shot, possibly freezing trap, shockwave, and possibly fist of justice. Everything else has a respectable enough tradeoff, cast time, range requirement, or cooldown to it that it's ok as-is. Some of these only need small adjustments, too. Silencing shot, for example, should just be an interrupt again with no blanket component.

    Silences are fine as a CC class, there's just too much availability on certain ones (imp cs). I think longer duration on a longer cooldown is a much better design.

    PvP power has to stay the way it is. The entire point of it was to keep PvE gear out of PvP for once, and a PvE-only throughput increase is realistically one of only two ways to fix that (the other being actually disabling non-pvp gear in rated pvp, which is a limiting and inelegant fix). Besides, if it just caused you to apply a scaling MS debuff (the idea's been suggested before), you'd get one class with high uptime to stack it and a second player on your team would wear heavy PvE gear. By the way, this level of damage is probably intended, otherwise they'd have buffed resilience by now. Unless this global healing nerf is just a precursory step to a resilience buff, but I think they'd have implemented them together if that were the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by calimmacil View Post
    Get your dirty hands of my pve shockwave. Shockwave as is is a crucial part of prot warriors.
    And since this is the pvp section, there are things that need attention, shockwave is NOT among them.

    tip: l2 not stack all together
    Shockwave is certainly among them; it's just not the only problem. Btw, the problem with shockwave is not that it hits multiple people--that's just an unnecessary bonus in BGs. It has way too much uptime, and does a lot of damage with cooldowns. A freaking stun critting for over 100k is broken, my friend.

    Rest assured though that PvE heroes are number one. Blizzard is quite unlikely to make a change that would have undesirable effects on PvE players, despite what you guys keep shouting at us. I wonder if they'd consider increasing the cooldown on it only for arms and fury. I don't think any other talents work that way atm, but really shockwave is imbalanced for dps warriors in PvP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaderas View Post
    Umm, not to nitpick here, but I'm fairly certain that Rogues have not had a mace stun effect for a VERY long time.
    Maybe he meant paralytic poison? It's pretty strong against classes that can't dispel poison, and has that same random nature to it (though much more predictable and controlled).

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by calimmacil View Post
    tip: l2 not stack all together
    That isn't the problem with shockwave.


    OT: Paladins didn't need an AoE 6s Blind,
    Warlocks didn't need an instant fear,
    Mages didn't need PoM-Ring (something that Blizzard took away after they realized how OP it was in Cata),
    DKs didn't need more grips,
    Warriors didn't need more burst, stuns and mobility (one not all)
    Feral Druids didn't need Incarnation to behave the way it does - remove Ravage from the benefits

    If none of these changes went live, nobody would've missed anything. None of it makes any real difference to PvE and boss encounters. All these classes got other 'cool' stuff so why did they need these aswell?
    Last edited by Snuggli; 2012-12-13 at 01:06 AM.

  18. #18
    I think instant silences and and interrupts are fine. These instant abilities have existed since vanilla.
    Single target instant stuns and disorients are fine, but these should have a considerable longer CD.
    Everything else that keeps you out of the fight longer than 5 secs, should have a cast time: hex, polymorph, fear, etc.

    What needs to go is INSTANT+AOE+CC. The biggest offenders right now are Shockwave and Ring of Frost. They need some toning down.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by calimmacil View Post
    Get your dirty hands of my pve shockwave. Shockwave as is is a crucial part of prot warriors.
    And since this is the pvp section, there are things that need attention, shockwave is NOT among them.

    tip: l2 not stack all together
    Yeah...that's not the issue with shockwave. Sorry to burst your rant of "L2P"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBmNL...ature=youtu.be (#1 SSB Gold run on Bleeding Hollow)
    "Your lights will go out. The darkness will envelop you. And you will fear the shadows that move within it."

  20. #20
    I think the massive amount of CC need to be reduced of course, but also need to be easier to "guess" and the prevent.

    Example : Mage's deep freeze requires a frost nova (mage's or pet's) OR a Fingers of frost proc. Now, the nova part most classes can dodge (shapeshift, cloak/vanish, blink although you'd most likely not blink a nova, safeguard/leap, etc.) but with fingers of frost you have no alert that deep is coming. I think removing the Deep part of fingers of frost (making it only boost ice lance) would be a nice gesture towards easier to prevent & less nobrainer CC.

    Also, druid's shapeshift out of snare is far out of control. Shapeshift should maybe be more expensive or something, because right now it's really hard to catch a druid in Nagrand arena (for example). And the fact that druids are pretty much immune to snare/root, kinda '"reduces" the value of said snare/root. That "forces" blizz to give everyone a stun to make things fair.

    Recent changes to warrior are fair enough, although maybe (just maybe) a bit overboard imo.

    PS : I play these three classes, so that's not just ranting.
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