My take on the whole "too many dailies" issue

[Moradim]

future daily areas should follow the model of the area introduced in 5.1. unlike the other areas, getting a story quest every few days is actually interesting. it's a nice change of pace from just grinding the same 5 dailies over and over, as you get something new to do fairly often.

[Banzhe]

The majority has spoken on this issue and Blizzard themselves have acknowledged that some dailies namely the Klaxxis and Golden Lotus dailies were too many and that the Shado Pan fewer quests more rep model is better. So we seem to be more than justified in our "complaining."

What majority? Provide a source with numbers if you want to claim this!

There's been some loud screaming babies on public forums, and these forums.., the majority of times when reading these, you'll quickly notice that after other players start hurling questions at them, it comes down to wanting the pixels for little to no effort =/= time.., just like it was the case in Cataclysm which eventually lead us down this road.

It's not appealing, or even good game design to have everything available in one aspect of the game that requires you to sit in a city clicking a button.., and then if you chose to, go afk and wait til the encounter is over and collect your winnings.
I'd wager the game, and blizzard would be better of just completely ignoring these loud screaming babies, so they could focus on lasting content instead of dumping those that actually are working.

[MoanaLisa]

I also already described before why I think the two are remotely comparable for people who care about maximizing their character's effectiveness. It is not meant as a perfect comparison but as a way to demonstrate the nature of the upgrades.

I think the bit about maximizing character effectiveness is the point at which the argument begins to branch off into separate camps. And that's OK by me. Because the interesting game design philosophy question about that is whether or not it is necessary to maximize everything to be successful. That depends on what sort of player you are and the guild situation you find yourself in. For LFR, certainly not; for Normal, no not really; Heroic, yes. That said I think it's possible to approach gearing for Heroics in multiple ways.

I won't argue that Blizzard messed up by making valor easy to get and finding anything to spend it on very difficult. I think that's clear and is one of those smack-your-forehead things that makes you wonder 1) what the hell were they thinking and 2) was the design team on this too large to get to a sensible end point. I don't know the answer to that and I doubt if Blizzard will ever be clear about it. Perhaps the top-down rule that drove all in MoP was to make sure that people had stuff to do.

I still view with some uncertainty your gemming/enchanting comparison at its foundation but I've realized that my view of that may be irrelevant to yours and for exactly the reasons in your quote: I would never show up for a raid in gear that was not gemmed and enchanted. I would, however, show up for a raid in gear that was good enough and that could be improved through drops as we work through the tier. And I wouldn't necessarily stay with a guild that forces players to do things they loathe just to keep their raid spot. That's a fundamentally different proposition to what you were saying but to my mind equally as valid and speaks a lot more to what sort of player I am and less to the game itself.

There are guilds that view themselves as hard-core and want everything to be perfect and guilds that are fine with the notions that skill, good play and an atmosphere in which people can enjoy themselves and have fun are more important than nagging their members for shortcomings in a piece of gear here and there. To the extent that one believes that either of those are really the only satisfying way and 'correct' way to play the game you'll never bridge the gap between the two. I've done both and now much prefer the latter. I do tend to believe that the overall raid design now corrects for and targets the players in that second group, at least up through current difficulty normal which I find a bit more difficult and satisfying than T13. I doubt if I'll ever set foot in a Heroic raid again while the tier is current and I'm comfortable with that.

Anyway, some random thoughts.

[Celista]

I won't argue that Blizzard messed up by making valor easy to get and finding anything to spend it on very difficult. I think that's clear and is one of those smack-your-forehead things that makes you wonder 1) what the hell were they thinking and 2) was the design team on this too large to get to a sensible end point. I don't know the answer to that and I doubt if Blizzard will ever be clear about it. Perhaps the top-down rule that drove all in MoP was to make sure that people had stuff to do.

Your entire post was pretty fair and balanced. It's nice to see both raiding "camps" addressed in one post because so often it seems as though x person can't understand why y person feels that dailies are/are not mandatory for raiding.

As for the quoted part...agree. Too many cooks stirring the pot? Would be interesting to see how a development meeting at Blizzard goes, sometimes it seems me as though the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing over there.

[Otaka]

If the dailies were fun to do, it wouldnt be that bad to do em everyday... but imagine killing 40 klaxxi mobs and putting 7 smoke bombs everyday...

Theres probably only a few dailies that are fun factor. Klaxxi has that bombing run, which is always fun and its fast.
So things like those are actually fun to do, we need more of them.

The daily in ICC that required you to conquer the mountain on a mechagnome was fun... the bombing runs in ICC were fun.

The way blizzard says that dailies arent requirement, nor the coins for extra loot, is ignorance.
THEY can say that, but raid guilds wont. For any raid guild getting coins and reputations to exalted is a mandatory, because it gives more loot and better gear for the raiders.

Blizzard cant say they arent a requirement when every raid guild makes them a requirement.

[Celista]

Blizzard cant say they arent a requirement when every raid guild makes them a requirement.

Not every raid guild does. It was a requirement in my guild though, as well as conquest point capping for the first few weeks at least to fill in item slots if you weren't a main tank.

[Spacepunch]

im done having to do dailies already, so if everyone just grin and beared it they would have nothing to cry about anymore.

[Faroth]

Personally I wish valor gear would just go away. Completely. 100% drop gearing model brought back and ilvl upgrade lets you offset bad luck. Got your chest, shoulders, legs but gloves aren't dropping? Ilvl upgrade on chest, shoulders, and legs offsets the lower ilvl gloves.

I'd rather see expansions release with dailies in quantity as Mists of Pandaria, but put transmog sets related to the faction behind the rep. Different pieces as you go through the levels of rep.

[Deathgoose]

Full clear alone should get you capped. It did in every other tier. Why would a raider, that can full clear 16/16 want to run a heroic? They gain nothing from it. Assuming you have done 0 heroics, the valor could be useful to upgrade all your gear so don't try and say why would they want to valor cap if that's the case.

Why would someone that can full clear 16/16 even care about VP?

Sure, you can upgrade your gear, but you're 16/16. You've cleared all the content. Beyond that, you're just growing your epeen.

[NightZero88]

Why would someone that can full clear 16/16 even care about VP?

Are we talking about heroic or normal? If heroic, I can see your point which is why I specifically stated normal. If normal, most people want to do heroics.

Sure, you can upgrade your gear, but you're 16/16. You've cleared all the content. Beyond that, you're just growing your epeen.

So why even do normal then? You can see all content in LFR. Beyond that, you're just growing your epeen. Right?

[Leonard McCoy]

Personally I wish valor gear would just go away. Completely. 100% drop gearing model brought back and ilvl upgrade lets you offset bad luck. Got your chest, shoulders, legs but gloves aren't dropping? Ilvl upgrade on chest, shoulders, and legs offsets the lower ilvl gloves.

I'd rather see expansions release with dailies in quantity as Mists of Pandaria, but put transmog sets related to the faction behind the rep. Different pieces as you go through the levels of rep.

Nobody or next to nobody would touch these fucking daily quests if they did that. I wish they would do that honestly. I wish they would get some balls, embrace the loud minority and do it. The sooner they do it the sooner the devs abandon listening to the back in the day crowd who insists their way is the best way and the devs can move on to other more progressive avenues for the game.

[melodramocracy]

My take is this:

There's a lot of subscribers who actually don't want to play this game. Instead, they'd prefer sitting in Org complaining about how little there is to do.

[Keoren]

I still view with some uncertainty your gemming/enchanting comparison at its foundation but I've realized that my view of that may be irrelevant to yours and for exactly the reasons in your quote: I would never show up for a raid in gear that was not gemmed and enchanted. I would, however, show up for a raid in gear that was good enough and that could be improved through drops as we work through the tier.

I think that our points of view simply differ and there is no reason arguing about it. I perceive both as equally vital when playing on a competitive level be that as an individual or as a guild, but such expectations would be hard to justify when the approach becomes more casual and the focus shifts away from maximum performance. Along with other things and despite their nature being the same the act of having your gear enchanted and gemmed is much less of a hassle than it is to complete all of the dailies every day. I can completely understand if someone does not view the upgrades as necessary or worth the effort. They are likely not for what the person is aiming to achieve and as such the daily grind can also be ignored at will.

And I wouldn't necessarily stay with a guild that forces players to do things they loathe just to keep their raid spot. That's a fundamentally different proposition to what you were saying but to my mind equally as valid and speaks a lot more to what sort of player I am and less to the game itself.

It is worth noting that it is not just the guilds expecting their raiders to be maximising their character power, but a majority of the people at such competitive levels likely self-imposedly expect that out of themselves as well. It is a way of playing.

To the extent that one believes that either of those are really the only satisfying way and 'correct' way to play the game you'll never bridge the gap between the two.

There are numerous different ways to play this game, even within individual guilds and groups of people, and none of them is the correct one per se. This whole topic regarding the dailies arises from some of the playstyles orientating the players into completing the reputations despite the act being potentially off-putting. These people will continue to bear it if nothing changes, but as it is, it is a quality of life issue to many.

I think this topic also interestingly overlaps with another subject; in which form should grinds exist in the quality RPGs of today, be it sandbox or theme park?

[Urza29]

i had an idea, not that it matters at this point...But what if they would take a entirely new approach to reps in mop/next expansion. The whole "we give you 5 reps to start with, and then add in new ones each content patch" is old, its been done every expansion since bc, once those green bars are filled...its done...you never return to that faction nor do you care, its just a number bar to fill to be efficient and have it done, achievement points.

What if the next reps they started out with say 5 or 6 factions, but instead of rushing through to exalted asap as most do anyways, they simply only let us get to say honored, but make the rep gain longer so that honored feels like exalted, so that say 5.0 patch you do dailys (and come up with other ways to getting rep too!) and you get them to honored, great! now you get rewards based on that FIRST tier of gear.

489 gear is already kinda outdated and we are only 1 minor patch in. They should design reps to be ongoing throughout the whole expansion, imangine if instead of grinding to exalted with golden lotus to get rewards, you grinded to honored (and the journey was equal in terms of time/investment) and you gained 489 gear now for 5.1. Now when next raid patch comes out, bam now they can continue story, add more quests to the existing factions, breathe life into older content, which not a whole lot of effort, instead of adding new factions, adding to our already long list of factions in this game, simply add on to the others, and make the core 5-6 factions all you need throughout the entire expansion, build up some tension and make the stories mean something, towards a goal, instead of having a war or some big battle at the start of an expansion, let it play out over several patches!

imagine if the klaxxi you were only 1/4 the way through the story at honored! at revered there is a epic battle coming! then at exalted, you champion the klaxxi and head into the war/battle as their champion, with epic rewards and etc, worthy of a true ending! make questing as exciting and rewarding as raids?

also could add more dungeons and tie more dungeon quests to factions too, imangine if you were say revered with golden lotus, allowing you see more content from said dungeon and maybe even an extra boss, with randomized loot or something

So basically:

expansion launch 6.0
5 factions at neutral.
epic storylines/quests to get you to honored, rewards CURRENT raid quality gear (489's mop example)

6.1
Continues story/new quests of original 5 factions, to REVERED with updated gear for current raid content

6.2...same as before (with some added innovation along the way)

so then by the end of the expansion, even if your alt is going through and starts at honored, they can progress through and access the better gear along the way, gearing up through process, if you don't raid would be a great way of doing it, you have the choice to spend your time questing and progressing your character through quests and story, and there is a start and end point, unlike currently where you simply grind out to exalted and never return, everything ends, and you have nothing to do. If factions were ongoing, as long as they added enough content each patch to each, you could continue to progress and get better gear along the way.

It would almost be like extending the leveling process, like questing through to 90, you stop questing at 90, but as long as they kept adding content and quests why cant you keep questing and getting better rewards? Imagine letting anyone who wants to put the effort into it, be able to have all 489 gear for example, and make the quests progressively harder, so at some point it may get to challenging to continue (make more group quests!...raid boss events!)

i'd like to see quests that are literally to hard to do for your gear level...every quest in wow is simply way to easy especially with better gear, design some quests or encounters based on % of life or mechanics that flat out kill you if done wrong, make some quests that have balls once in awhile.

I think having consistent story driven content that continues through each patch throughout an expansion rather than grind and done way doing it now would be amazing, we could take our time through the story and quests, and still progress, without having to feel we have to do it every day, and it would be alt friendly even if new alt far into an expansion, they can catch up story and gear wise (with the 100% buff thing) and make exalted with a faction aucutally feel...EXALTED. there is no difference in honored or exalted for any faction in wow, other than rewards and a green bar of numbers...

Make us work for the gear/rewards, while allowing us to take our time and ENJOY the content, not get burnt out doing same quests over and over, to get outdated gear by newer patches, factions have always felt to throw away.

[Deathgoose]

Are we talking about heroic or normal? If heroic, I can see your point which is why I specifically stated normal. If normal, most people want to do heroics.

So why even do normal then? You can see all content in LFR. Beyond that, you're just growing your epeen. Right?

It takes 1500 VP to fully upgrade one piece of gear. You can only get 1000 VP a week. So, after 2 weeks of VP capping you're at 2k, and after three weeks of VP capping, you can fully upgrade a grand total of two pieces, for a cumulative 16 points of iLvL increase.

Unless you're raid is wiping at ~1%, I don't think that an 8 iLvL increase on two pieces is going to make or break the encounter. I would wager that the 3 weeks of practicing on those heroic mode bosses will have a greater impact than a very marginal stat increase.

But if you still want to cap VP no matter what, if 5-man heroics are so beneath "real raiders", LFR gives 450 VP for the 5 parts doing a watered down version of what you want to do, and likely a chance at filling in a spot or two that you could still be missing due to crap RNG.

And if 100% of your gear is better than LFR quality already, then again, gear is not your road block, and you don't really need anymore VP this tier.

[Urza29]

they need to give us more options to spend valor points, the current valor gear is only still 489, which is pretty meh for the effort currently to obtain it, all the dailies and valor and faction grind, it was only really ok when 5.0 hit, but its now oudated. They should add more gear or items each patch or something.

My other thought was to add a reward or way to spread valor across ALL your items at once, like instead of doing each item individually, imangine paying full 3k to add 2 ilvls to every item equipped (maybe put in a confirm for each slot so in case you didnt want each slot but most slots upgraded) so instead of 8 lvls on 1 item maybe 1-2 ilvls across several items at once (just an idea, improve upon as you wish)

Be nice also to convert valor to justice (coming in 5.2 supposedly) and also get jp instead of vp if capped doing quests (also hopefully for 5.2)

Be nice to also have some kind of valor sink over time to put valor into to get some reward, like building something of value and you can put into each week.