1. #1

    Possible Solution to Monk Burst.

    Currently WW monk burst is not burst.
    what i think would be a solution is letting our mastery procs stack to 3 or so, it would allow us to line up some burst in pvp.
    I know im not a ranked monk , and sometimes i use jab before using my procced Bok/TP, but thats because sometimes im going to energy cap.

  2. #2
    There's 2 specific things that make WW burst non-existent.

    1) Neither haste or mastery actually increase burst. While both are increases over time, more haste just increases the time it takes to go from 100 Energy to 0. With zero haste, that still takes around 10 seconds (assuming Jab/RSK/Jab/BoK/Jab/BoK/Jab/BoK etc) even when in full burst mode, thus making haste pretty irrelevant if you're after burst damage. Mastery increases damage over time, but when you get that free BoK it pushes back the rest of the rotation by 1 second. It's like Elemental or Shadow mastery in that you essentially get double damage from the next attack, but it takes 2 GCDs which highly diminishes its actual DPS boost. The irony of course is that those two specs have a much higher mastery rate on top of not costing extra GCDs AND they both like Haste more than mastery.

    2) WW's cooldown situation is really, really bad. You have essentially 3 DPS "cooldowns", Xuen (obviously), Energizing Brew, and Tigereye Brew. I'll start out by saying that Xuen is fine. It's a nice cooldown, does a lot of damage, but it would be a bit nicer if it was concentrated into 20 or 30 seconds rather than 45. Oh well, it's still a good cooldown.

    Energizing Brew does absolutely nothing for burst in the same way that haste really doesn't. Rather than increasing damage in a short window (10 or 15 seconds), it extends your "burst" window by an extra 10 seconds. Too bad it doesn't synergize with Xuen's DPS increase whatsoever, so that sucks. It's possibly the worst DPS cooldown in the game, Mindbender might even be better.

    Tigereye Brew has an absolutely deadly flaw in that it's not actually a cooldown. It has absolutely awful synergy with burst and other cooldowns because it's very unpredictable (especially in PvP where you are NOT generating stacks if you're CC'd). Not only that, but it doesn't increase Xuen's damage at all, and is too short to be covered by the extended DPS window provided by EB, which makes it literally not synergize with either of the other DPS cooldowns. Of course, half of its usefulness is destroyed because it's not available at the start of an arena or boss fight.

    Unfortunately, solutions can be tossed around left and right but when it comes down to it, Windwalker needs a lot of work. No one change will "fix" Windwalker's stat issues or cooldown issues without a lot of testing.

  3. #3
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    Energizing brew is actually one of our strongest defensive cooldowns, for instance when trying to reset a fight in arena you can heal yourself to at least half hp again while running away and waiting for your other defensive cooldowns to be ready again.

    I do not think our pvp burst is bad because we have a very strong one and timed right its usually a healer kill, the only thing I see monks lacking right now is stronger survival against cc and possibly a better defensive cooldown against heavy burst classes such as hunters and arms warriors.

    The class is very well made but does indeed lack something in pvp but that is in my opinion definitely not burst, any improvement on our burst will push us over the edge where we go into the area of classes that can be called overpowered.

    We are indeed as the OP states not burst, we are most likely one of the strongest substained dps out there and when played right we wont drop in dps in pve and are able to put on constant presure in pvp.
    Last edited by Asnerek; 2012-12-15 at 10:25 AM.

  4. #4
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asnerek View Post
    Energizing brew is actually one of our strongest defensive cooldowns, for instance when trying to reset a fight in arena you can heal yourself to at least half hp again while running away and waiting for your other defensive cooldowns to be ready again.

    I do not think our pvp burst is bad because we have a very strong one and timed right its usually a healer kill, the only thing I see monks lacking right now is stronger survival against cc and possibly a better defensive cooldown against heavy burst classes such as hunters and arms warriors.

    The class is very well made but does indeed lack something in pvp but that is in my opinion definitely not burst, any improvement on our burst will push us over the edge where we go into the area of classes that can be called overpowered.

    We are indeed as the OP states not burst, we are most likely one of the strongest substained dps out there and when played right we wont drop in dps in pve and are able to put on constant presure in pvp.
    1. This is about our lack of burst, not defensive cooldowns.

    2. Some players give 2 shits about pvp and how WW's are performing in arenas, myself included.

    3. If our mastery allowed procs to stack and you're holding out to use them at the right time, what do you intend to use when you are chi capped and RSK is on cooldown? (That's assuming you're talking about BoK stacks)
    Last edited by Ragethorn; 2012-12-15 at 11:21 AM.

  5. #5
    The Patient Valient's Avatar
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    Would like to see EB changed to mirror Tiger's Fury (the feral ability) or something similar. Increase all damage for 6 seconds by 20-30% and returns 60 energy, on a 30-45 seconds CD, would add a level on complexity to the otherwise straightforward playstyle and give a small window of burst. I don't PvP so idk if losing EB in it's current form would be a huge problem but from a PvE perspective it's not that gamebreaking.

  6. #6
    Mechagnome Mr. Casual's Avatar
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    if mastery proc'd rsk would help, double rsk would be tasty

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragethorn View Post
    1. This is about our lack of burst, not defensive cooldowns.

    2. Some players give 2 shits about pvp and how WW's are performing in arenas, myself included.

    3. If our mastery allowed procs to stack and you're holding out to use them at the right time, what do you intend to use when you are chi capped and RSK is on cooldown? (That's assuming you're talking about BoK stacks)
    First off the OP mentions PVP ergo arena wich is why I try to explain to him that our burst would make us a over the top class if it were to be touched in its current state.

    Secondly my defensive cooldown reply is to counter Totaltotemic who claims energizing brew is a useless burst cooldown and I explain to him how it can be used to your advantage anyway as a burst healing cooldown (staying alive = do more damage = win) for the pve part that cooldown is actually not even to be called bad when dry on energy.

    So its great you do not care about pvp but if you had read the OP's post you would have seen that he actually talks about pvp and he doesnt really even mention problems in pve.

    The thing you mention as 3. doesnt apply to anything I said before so I dont see why you put that under a quotation of me, but that stacking BoK looks ridiculous to me anyway.

    The only way the BoK would work is if BoK would give you a stacking RSK buff that stacks 2 or 3 times to duplicate its damage and that would again make us a fotm class wich I really rather would not be cause I like to put some effort in my playstyle.
    Last edited by Asnerek; 2012-12-15 at 05:36 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Asnerek View Post
    Energizing brew is actually one of our strongest defensive cooldowns, for instance when trying to reset a fight in arena you can heal yourself to at least half hp again while running away and waiting for your other defensive cooldowns to be ready again.
    I didn't say it was useless, I said it did not help burst. If you think that a DPS spec's burst is "fine" when they have no cooldowns at all that can help it, that's not burst, it's sustained damage. Recklessness, Deep Freeze, Ascendance, those are burst cooldowns. If Windwalker burst is fine with no cooldowns, then surely it's sustained DPS must be overpowered right?

  9. #9
    You talking about having mastery stac procs and such. What is wrong with chi brew? You can pool 4 chi and make sure tiger power is up then RSK > BoK> chi brew > BoK > Bok. Once the chi is pooled you have no energy cost at all for this combo, can use tigereye brew and trinkets with the entire chain. You can do this every 1.5 mins, is that not burst cooldown for you?

    Also, in a world where blizzard is nerfing trinkets to reduce burst and looking at nerfing other skills etc.. to reduce burst, isn't it better to be the class that can chain constant and reliable pressure. I mean burst is fine, but isn't it also a weakness when you rely on burst and are then interrupted or cc'd during your attack wave and you waste your cooldowns?

    I have a feeling that alot of complaints here are coming from people that are reluctant to acknowledge chi brew as a real cooldown and also ignorant to what blizzard is trying to do to pvp. Windwalker contains some very strong tools for control, defense and attack yet everyone just wants to dismiss the possibilities instead of actuall trying it out. I think we've established by the theorycrafting on this forum already that now monk healing got nerfed down to a respectable level that none of the monk specs are cut and dry simple and have a higher skill cap that most. Mark my words, with the way blizzard is changing pvp, windwalker will become one of the best choices.

  10. #10
    Fortunately you can make up for not having unhealable burst by chaining together a well placed Spear Hand, LegSweep, FoF under tiger brew. I also paralyse aura mastery.

    What if mastery increased the damage of your next BoK by a stacking amount? Right now WW Mastery is probably the worst in game, it even screws up rotation in PvE with energy capping or just ignoring palm procs altogether.
    Last edited by squid; 2012-12-15 at 06:23 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by squid View Post
    Fortunately you can make up for not having unhealable burst by chaining together a well placed Spear Hand, LegSweep, FoF under tiger brew. I also paralyse aura mastery.

    What if mastery increased the damage of your next BoK by a stacking amount? Right now WW Mastery is probably the worst in game, it even screws up rotation in PvE with energy capping or just ignoring palm procs altogether.
    yea, most of my kills come from well timed cc chains.

  12. #12
    How about something like, allowing mastery to proc rising sun kick only when you got tigereye brew up?

  13. #13
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Casual View Post
    if mastery proc'd rsk would help, double rsk would be tasty
    That would be really cool; only problem is that our burst would be really rng and would require us to stack a ton of mastery to get those "guaranteed" rsk procs similar to fire mages in cata stacking crit to get the guaranteed crit to obtain the extra instant pyro proc.

    But I do agree with you. Would definitely be nice if they removed the Tiger Palm proc (now that we only need to stack it once instead of 3 times now) and replace it with rsk and keep bok as is.

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