Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
LastLast
  1. #41
    Wow. Just wow.

    Ok, for those who are clearly confused, imagine the following extreme scenarios:

    A) You have 0% tooltip haste (which is actually 100% haste). DOT ticks once every 3 seconds for 3 damage. DOT lasts for infinite amount of time (read never needs to be refreshed). Your dps with this DOT is 1 dps

    B) You have 200% tooltip haste (read: 300%). DOT now ticks once every 1 second for 3 damage. DOT lasts for infinite amount of time. Your dps is now 3 dps

    C) Now, your dot has a finite length, say 10 seconds. It ticks every 3 seconds for 3 damage per tick. Your dps is 1.

    D) Now, your dot lasts for 20 seconds. It ticks every 3 seconds for 3 damage per tick. Your dps is still 1.

    The increase in dps from gaining more ticks, like going from scenario C to scenario D is NOT the extra tick itself. It makes no difference to the DOT dps. None. The extra overall dps you see comes from refreshing the DOT slightly less often. This means you save a GCD, which would then be used on a Mind Flay tick most likely. And no, you don't save a GCD with every refresh of the DOT. You save a little bit over time, infact i think it's after around 6 refreshes that you save a GCD which is roughly 100 seconds but somebody else can give the exact numbers. That's an extra Mind Flay tick every minute and 40 seconds, not huge.

    DOTs will ALWAYS benefit from haste (as seen in Scenario A and B). Even beyond breakpoints. DOTs benefit from haste because they tick more often. Not for longer, but more often, notice that important distinction between more often and longer! i.e. the DOT frequency increases with haste.

    The only exception to the above is DOTs that cannot be refreshed at will and hence will not have a 100% uptime, ever. Examples of these DOTs are Devouring Plague and Combustion. With these DOTs the opposite is true, extra ticks increase the overall damage of the dot that you would not otherwise have and increasing the frequency of these DOTs actually does not increase their damage. it only makes them slightly more "bursty" dps. For Spriests, the real increase in dps at the 8085 breakpoint actually comes slightly before when DP gains an extra tick. HOWEVER these DOTs are often very short tick duration (frequency) i.e. 1 second at 0% haste, so there are many breakpoints for these DOTs that don't require huge jumps in haste rating and the likely hood is that increasing your haste by any half decent amount will give you more ticks.

    As for refreshing DOTs, the mechanics are the same as Cata in that buffs to you are applied at the time the DOT lands on the target and will not update dynamically. Debuffs on the target will update the DOT dynamically on a per tick basis.

    Edited to say in my examples above I realise it's impossible for a DOT to tick every 3 seconds and last for 10 seconds, but you get the point
    Last edited by stiglet; 2012-12-20 at 11:16 AM.
    "I never met a miner who complained about the weather"

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by zirgalan View Post
    Ok, now I get the point, ty.

    Lowers the tick duration. Forgot about this, kinda is the main point

    So, same tick dmg but faster.
    Overall, it will make our rotation faster, so it will increase dmg even if we don't reach the next haste breakpoint.

    Anyway, a intellect proc gives more overall dmg I think.
    So if I have DoTs on boss that were cast during a haste proc, if next I get a INT proc, I should replace those DoTs anyway.
    No, it's actually the exact opposite. Once you reach that haste breakpoint it increases the duration of the dot. This allows for less overall casts of the dot so you gain GCDs used else where. As for reaching the sw breakpoint(w/o 4pc), the dps gain for reaching 8085 is mainly from reaching the DP breakpoint of 8064 haste. The sw pp gain is only around 70 and meeting the DP breakpoint is around a 170 pp gain.

    Stream: twitch.tv/DryeLuLZ
    Twitter: @Dryelulz

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Drye View Post
    No, it's actually the exact opposite. Once you reach that haste breakpoint it increases the duration of the dot. This allows for less overall casts of the dot so you gain GCDs used else where. As for reaching the sw breakpoint(w/o 4pc), the dps gain for reaching 8085 is mainly from reaching the DP breakpoint of 8064 haste. The sw pp gain is only around 70 and meeting the DP breakpoint is around a 170 pp gain.
    Yeah, that's totally correct. Not sure about the numbers which i guess would change from char to char but that sounds about right. Most of the increase in DPS comes from DP extra tick and not adding ticks to the other 2 of our DOTs, whichever you happen to be adding ticks to depending on 4 set or not.
    "I never met a miner who complained about the weather"

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by zirgalan View Post
    Hmm,

    Updating dots due to a trinket haste proc is wrong? why is that?

    I do it on int trinket proc and on haste proc
    It's not worth refreshing very early on any proc; burning GCDs to get slightly larger dot ticks is a waste of GCDs - you're never going to gain much damage because our dots don't tick for enough.

    With all my int procs lined up they net about 4k/tick on sw:p, so around 36k over a full duration. That's not even worth one mind flay.

    If your buff is about to fall off it might be worth shuffling the refresh forwards a couple of ticks, but that's about it.

  5. #45
    Wow. Just wow.

    Ok, for those who are clearly confused, imagine the following extreme scenarios:

    A) You have 0% tooltip haste (which is actually 100% haste). DOT ticks once every 3 seconds for 3 damage. DOT lasts for infinite amount of time (read never needs to be refreshed). Your dps with this DOT is 1 dps

    B) You have 200% tooltip haste (read: 300%). DOT now ticks once every 1 second for 3 damage. DOT lasts for infinite amount of time. Your dps is now 3 dps

    C) Now, your dot has a finite length, say 10 seconds. It ticks every 3 seconds for 3 damage per tick. Your dps is 1.

    D) Now, your dot lasts for 20 seconds. It ticks every 3 seconds for 3 damage per tick. Your dps is still 1.

    The increase in dps from gaining more ticks, like going from scenario C to scenario D is NOT the extra tick itself. It makes no difference to the DOT dps. None. The extra overall dps you see comes from refreshing the DOT slightly less often. This means you save a GCD, which would then be used on a Mind Flay tick most likely. And no, you don't save a GCD with every refresh of the DOT. You save a little bit over time, infact i think it's after around 6 refreshes that you save a GCD which is roughly 100 seconds but somebody else can give the exact numbers. That's an extra Mind Flay tick every minute and 40 seconds, not huge.

    DOTs will ALWAYS benefit from haste (as seen in Scenario A and B). Even beyond breakpoints. DOTs benefit from haste because they tick more often. Not for longer, but more often, notice that important distinction between more often and longer! i.e. the DOT frequency increases with haste.

    The only exception to the above is DOTs that cannot be refreshed at will and hence will not have a 100% uptime, ever. Examples of these DOTs are Devouring Plague and Combustion. With these DOTs the opposite is true, extra ticks increase the overall damage of the dot that you would not otherwise have and increasing the frequency of these DOTs actually does not increase their damage. it only makes them slightly more "bursty" dps. For Spriests, the real increase in dps at the 8085 breakpoint actually comes slightly before when DP gains an extra tick. HOWEVER these DOTs are often very short tick duration (frequency) i.e. 1 second at 0% haste, so there are many breakpoints for these DOTs that don't require huge jumps in haste rating and the likely hood is that increasing your haste by any half decent amount will give you more ticks.

    As for refreshing DOTs, the mechanics are the same as Cata in that buffs to you are applied at the time the DOT lands on the target and will not update dynamically. Debuffs on the target will update the DOT dynamically on a per tick basis.
    Kudos to you kind sir. This the by far best explaination of how DoTs are affected by Haste I have ever seen. Should be a part of every SP F.A.Q / guide on the entire internet!
    They're (short for They are) describes a group of people. "They're/They are a nice bunch of guys." Their indicates that something belongs/is related to a group of people. "Their car was all out of fuel." There refers to a location. "Let's set up camp over there." There is also no such thing as "could/should OF". The correct way is: Could/should'VE, or could/should HAVE.
    Holyfury armory

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by ThrashMetalFtw View Post
    Kudos to you kind sir. This the by far best explaination of how DoTs are affected by Haste I have ever seen. Should be a part of every SP F.A.Q / guide on the entire internet!
    Kudos goes to H2P and all the theory boffins there. I'm only summarizing their findings. It just irks me slightly that their hard work and explanations get distorted and confused. There are a lot of players who still believe that haste only improves DOTs dps at a breakpoint, then after that haste is useless, hence they call it a "cap", which of course is totally wrong.

    Spread the knowledge!
    "I never met a miner who complained about the weather"

  7. #47
    What I meant was that I have never seen anybody explain it as good as that (including anything on H2P). The info itself has been known for 3 years now.
    They're (short for They are) describes a group of people. "They're/They are a nice bunch of guys." Their indicates that something belongs/is related to a group of people. "Their car was all out of fuel." There refers to a location. "Let's set up camp over there." There is also no such thing as "could/should OF". The correct way is: Could/should'VE, or could/should HAVE.
    Holyfury armory

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by stiglet View Post
    Yeah, that's totally correct. Not sure about the numbers which i guess would change from char to char but that sounds about right. Most of the increase in DPS comes from DP extra tick and not adding ticks to the other 2 of our DOTs, whichever you happen to be adding ticks to depending on 4 set or not.
    The math is done with a bis list. If you read my post on h2p that wooden linked earlier, it goes into detail of how you would calculate it and all the possible variables that would throw it off.

    Also thank you for creditin us and spreading good information. Sadly bad and misinformation spreads like wildfire for some reason. Which is why any time I see a post calling the 8085 breakpoint or plateau a hard or soft cap is so very frustrating because it isn't one at all. It's possible that once we get a more accurate simC that we "might" be able to call it a soft cap for now, again we have no deffinite answer on it. But for now people, please don't call it any type of a cap. Thats just bad and misinformation.
    Last edited by Drye; 2012-12-20 at 07:26 PM.

    Stream: twitch.tv/DryeLuLZ
    Twitter: @Dryelulz

  9. #49
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Probably Sleeping
    Posts
    1,082
    Quote Originally Posted by Drye View Post
    If you read my post on h2p that wooden linked earlier...
    It's Farmer Curry all over again ;____;

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Drye View Post
    No, just no. Please don't respond if you are going to give false information. People who dont know better might actually believe you.
    I'm not saying you should gem totally full haste now, but I just made a test where I changed out x3 Lightning Wild Jade to x3 Perfect Purified Roguestone
    = -480 haste, +240 intellect.

    (be aware of I reforged as well, still being at haste breakpoint)

    I made a test on simulation craft, now with a weird specc but that's aside the point; with the new gems, simcraft said I'd do 50138 on a dummy, with the old gems it said I'd do 50675 dps. So that's a 537 dps increase with using haste instead of intellect.
    The specc and settings I used was MB/ToF/Cascade, singletarget, 300 sec low world lag, player skill Good, only haste/stamina buffs

    by removing the haste I lost a lot of crit as well, so the intellect does not really break the offstats. With higher gear(as in pretty much full HC, haste trinket from elegon and such) you'll reach haste breakpoint/hitcap and yada yada w/o gemming haste and also get enough crit/mastery. But until then, In my opinion your offstats are worth more than intellect.
    Last edited by chief; 2012-12-21 at 12:43 AM.
    My Priest
    (my old paladin)Bályn <Reunion> - Silvermoon EU

  11. #51
    Haste is dynamic for our dots. Just go try it yourself go cast VT/SWP on a dummy then cast PI you'll see the tick speed go from 2.40 to 2.0 with 8184 haste and if you use forte you will even see the intervals between the ticks update, so please stop this discussion cause the final verdict is; Haste is dynamic, there is no reason for you to recast dots for any haste proc, cause you're just wasting globals by doing so

  12. #52
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Probably Sleeping
    Posts
    1,082
    Chief you don't understand why that's not good backing for your statements and should be part of a larger discussion on theorycrafting which is not the subject of this thread. Start a post on HERE if you'd like to discuss further.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Frmercury View Post
    Chief you don't understand why that's not good backing for your statements and should be part of a larger discussion on theorycrafting which is not the subject of this thread. Start a post on HERE if you'd like to discuss further.
    I don't get why everyone get's so deffensive straight away when someone is saying offstats gives more than intellect with lower gear..
    I made a test, same spec, same setup but with intellect instead of haste and I lost dps by doing it. That's it.

    But hey, what do I know. I've only played priest for about 5 months all together.

    Edit; No offence now, but by looking at your logs, you're doing about the same dps as I was doing with 483 ilvl, gemmed with haste/hit-haste gems.
    Last edited by chief; 2012-12-21 at 09:29 AM.
    My Priest
    (my old paladin)Bályn <Reunion> - Silvermoon EU

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by chief View Post
    I don't get why everyone get's so deffensive straight away when someone is saying offstats gives more than intellect with lower gear..
    I made a test, same spec, same setup but with intellect instead of haste and I lost dps by doing it. That's it.
    So you're saying that at low gear levels haste is worth more than half of what int is point for point? That's not exactly big news given the shadow sticky says exactly that.

    Also you don't need full HC gear to hit 8085 haste without gemming for haste; I'm well short of that and can hit 8085 haste without any problems. If you pick gear with haste as a normal stat (rather than reforging to haste) you'll hit that much haste with normal raid gear.

  15. #55
    I think tooltips are the only thing uptdated dynamically regarding haste, but they don't take spell change into consideration, being trying out on dummies. So tooltips are quite misleading, they update dynamically for haste(not spell thought, spell is always the same on tooltip). Thought the dot in itself will still tick depending on your haste at the landing of the spell.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Falsified View Post
    I think tooltips are the only thing uptdated dynamically regarding haste, but they don't take spell change into consideration, being trying out on dummies. So tooltips are quite misleading, they update dynamically for haste(not spell thought, spell is always the same on tooltip). Thought the dot in itself will still tick depending on your haste at the landing of the spell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Macco View Post
    and if you use forte you will even see the intervals between the ticks update
    Okay? Just let it go our dots are not warlock dots

  17. #57
    God all dots work the same way. Just check out with recount, try putting your dots, you will see 10 ticks, try putting your dots with PI(assuming it makes you gain one tic) you will see 11 ticks, now put your dots, then use pi, you will see 10 tics. Of course this was done with SWP.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferin View Post
    Also you don't need full HC gear to hit 8085 haste without gemming for haste; I'm well short of that and can hit 8085 haste without any problems. If you pick gear with haste as a normal stat (rather than reforging to haste) you'll hit that much haste with normal raid gear.
    My point was that It's more worth going for int-haste, int-spirit gems and such when you got enough gear to reach hitcap, haste breakpoint and still have enough to balance out Crit and mastery. Without a haste trinket, like the one from Elegon you're gonna have trouble reaching 8085 haste.

    Myself, without the pure haste gems I'll loose 2240 haste + the hit-haste gems, 640 haste. Let's say I'd put in int-spirt in blue sockets, int-haste in red/yellow and 160int in prismatics, I'd gain 1120 intellect. If now I'm correct that one intellect gives me 1.155 spell power, that's 1293.6 spell power, which I REALLY doubt will make up for crit/mastery loss.

    < and my case; Reforging to haste because not being able to reach haste breakpoint 8085.
    But yeah, now if you get the perfect loot table and every haste/spirit - haste/crit/ piece goes to you, Fine. I agree. You can reach haste breakpoint at 8085 without gemming haste. But now if you're unlucky with loots as I am, I have to do the best out of what I have, which is what I've done, and that's in this case going for haste/ hit-haste gems instead of intellect.

    (Also, my point is if you're going with haste/hit-haste gems you'll be more open to reforge to crit/mastery)
    Last edited by chief; 2012-12-21 at 05:01 PM.
    My Priest
    (my old paladin)Bályn <Reunion> - Silvermoon EU

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by chief View Post
    I don't get why everyone get's so deffensive straight away when someone is saying offstats gives more than intellect with lower gear...
    Because you are 100% incorrect. Int actually has its highest value at low ilvls and secondary stats are at their weakest at low ilvls. Which is why I asked, if you don't know what you are talking about and try to spread misinformation, to just not post because people will think you are correct. When in fact you are 100% wrong.

    Stream: twitch.tv/DryeLuLZ
    Twitter: @Dryelulz

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Macco View Post
    Okay? Just let it go our dots are not warlock dots
    Perhaps Forte is wrong?
    "I never met a miner who complained about the weather"

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •