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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Drye View Post
    Because you are 100% incorrect. Int actually has its highest value at low ilvls and secondary stats are at their weakest at low ilvls. Which is why I asked, if you don't know what you are talking about and try to spread misinformation, to just not post because people will think you are correct. When in fact you are 100% wrong.
    How low gear are you actually talking about? Because with MY gear I loose more dps than I'd gain by changing out haste to intellect, due the fact I'll loose A LOT of crit/mastery as well to reach 8085 haste.
    But now if you don't want to reach 8085 haste because of going with intellect instead, sure. That may be an dps increase. Still, I don't see why you wouldn't want to go for it.

    and I've not said in ANY way this is correct of what I'm saying. I said "In my opinion this is the way to go", and it WORKS for me.
    Last edited by chief; 2012-12-21 at 05:14 PM.
    My Priest
    (my old paladin)Bályn <Reunion> - Silvermoon EU

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by chief View Post

    Let's say I'd put in int-spirt in blue sockets, int-haste in red/yellow
    If you believe that haste is a better stat to gem for, why not go for full haste in yellow slots? Not saying it's correct or not, just curious why people never use full int or full haste if the gem bonus allows. You still get double secondary stats.


    Quote Originally Posted by chief View Post
    If now I'm correct that one intellect gives me 1.155 spell power, that's 1293.6 spell power, which I REALLY doubt will make up for crit/mastery loss.
    Yeah, it does. Because intellect gives you a bit of crit too and spell power is quite useful since it's the main contributor to your spell damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by chief View Post
    and my case; Reforging to haste because not being able to reach haste breakpoint 8085.
    How much do you believe the breakpoint is worth? How much have you sacrificed to reach it?

    I don't ask these questions because I think you are wrong, I ask them because I suspect you haven't considered these questions yourself. Unless you have, then i apologize.
    Last edited by stiglet; 2012-12-21 at 05:25 PM.
    "I never met a miner who complained about the weather"

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by stiglet View Post
    If you believe that haste is a better stat to gem for, why not go for full haste in yellow slots? Not saying it's correct or not, just curious why people never use full int or full haste if the gem bonus allows. You still get double secondary stats.
    I AM going for pure haste in yellow sockets. This was pure an example as the quote you made.


    Yeah, it does. Because intellect gives you a bit of crit too and spell power is quite useful since it's the main contributor to your spell damage.
    A: Yes, it does give me crit but just as an example now; Let's say you gain 1000 spell power and also looses 1000 crit. If now spell power gives me more dps It can't be by much.



    How much do you believe the breakpoint is worth? How much have you sacrificed to reach it?

    I don't ask these questions because I think you are wrong, I ask them because I suspect you haven't considered these questions yourself. Unless you have, then i apologize.
    A: Myself, I've mostly sacrified mastery, but instead choosed to balance out mastery and crit but still being at haste break point, which is working just fine for me.


    **READ**
    Still read though, I have never and will never say I'm right in what I'm saying. I only shared what I think works the best for me and MY playstyle. So before anyone else say "OMFG YOU'RE SO FUCKING WRONG D0000D WTF!!!!"; This is a forum, I shared what I think works, wrong or correct it works for me. I haven't and will never say it works for anyone else. But it gives people more room to experiment.
    Last edited by chief; 2012-12-21 at 05:38 PM.
    My Priest
    (my old paladin)Bályn <Reunion> - Silvermoon EU

  4. #64
    1000 spell power is worth way more than 1000 crit. I would make that trade every day of the week. There's a reason you get double secondary stats vs int on gems - because they're half as powerful at best.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferin View Post
    1000 spell power is worth way more than 1000 crit. I would make that trade every day of the week. There's a reason you get double secondary stats vs int on gems - because they're half as powerful at best.
    That's fine, yeah. I'd LOVE you to show me the dps damage change in some way. I'm nothing but open for suggestions, but also I don't like the idea of wasting thousands of gold to re-gem, reforge and then if it doesn't work out, re-gem and reforge everything again. But if you could come up with the best gem choices for me/enchants and show me the difference in some way, ofcourse I will try it out.
    My Priest
    (my old paladin)Bályn <Reunion> - Silvermoon EU

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferin View Post
    1000 spell power is worth way more than 1000 crit. I would make that trade every day of the week. There's a reason you get double secondary stats vs int on gems - because they're half as powerful at best.
    Have to agree with this mate. Spell power is far, far better than any secondary stat. Think what that 1000 crit ACTUALLY does for your spells damage, as in actually go through the process of seeing what affect it has. Then compare this to the spell power, and you will quickly see why.
    "I never met a miner who complained about the weather"

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by chief View Post
    That's fine, yeah. I'd LOVE you to show me the dps damage change in some way. I'm nothing but open for suggestions, but also I don't like the idea of wasting thousands of gold to re-gem, reforge and then if it doesn't work out, re-gem and reforge everything again. But if you could come up with the best gem choices for me/enchants and show me the difference in some way, ofcourse I will try it out.
    Personally I'd LOVE for you to show me logs where your dps went up substantially when you switched to gemming haste over int. Granted to prove your point you'd have to be performing equaly well in both logs (in terms of MB/DP usage and DoT uptimes, etc). Otherwise people will just dismiss what you are saying as "eh the increase you saw was probably just you being better at doing what you were doing and that coincided with you switching to haste which made it seem like to you that the switch to haste was what made it better".

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by stiglet View Post
    Have to agree with this mate. Spell power is far, far better than any secondary stat. Think what that 1000 crit ACTUALLY does for your spells damage, as in actually go through the process of seeing what affect it has. Then compare this to the spell power, and you will quickly see why.
    If you read my post at page 3, post #50 You'll see I made a test with changing only 3 gems, from hit-haste to int-spirit. I then reforged up to haste breakpoint again and lost crit, and by looking at simcraft I lost 537 dps by doing that. So even if I got 277 spell power, I lost crit(now mainly because of going for haste breakpoint) and that made me loose DPS.

    But if I shouldn't go for 8085 haste and instead go for intellect-haste/int-spirit gems and such, what number of haste is safe to be at then? Sooner or later I'll get Elegon trinket, either LFR or HC so that's about 1k haste which will help a lot ofc, but now when I don't have the trinket I mean.

    Edit: And by doing this; How much of an DPS increase could I expect?(By just looking at the paper)
    Last edited by chief; 2012-12-21 at 05:57 PM.
    My Priest
    (my old paladin)Bályn <Reunion> - Silvermoon EU

  9. #69
    What you have shown here is that Simcraft is unrealiable and has tolerances. personally, i wouldn't see 500dps loss or increase on Simcraft to prove anything at all. it's just too small a number to really say if your dps will change in a real fight.

    What i do know to be FACT is that intellect, and hence spellpower, is a better stat to aim for than haste. And that is always the case stat for stat. Some prefer to sacrifice a bit of int when they are very close to the breakpoint, as in maybe swap a couple of full int gem for a int/haste gem or something just to edge them over, but I wouldn't do more than that.

    But, each to their own...
    Last edited by stiglet; 2012-12-21 at 06:04 PM.
    "I never met a miner who complained about the weather"

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    Personally I'd LOVE for you to show me logs where your dps went up substantially when you switched to gemming haste over int. Granted to prove your point you'd have to be performing equaly well in both logs (in terms of MB/DP usage and DoT uptimes, etc). Otherwise people will just dismiss what you are saying as "eh the increase you saw was probably just you being better at doing what you were doing and that coincided with you switching to haste which made it seem like to you that the switch to haste was what made it better".
    Aye, I get that. In my case It will be kinda hard since the last time I weren't at the haste breakpoint was the same time I just came back from a break, and from there rerolled from my Paladin I've played since TBC. I'm fairly new to Priests overall for that matter, but I could probably make a test until next week on let's say Elegon, which is my favourite fight so far and the fight I feel the most comfortable doing.

    The kills I've done on Elegon is from 116k, 146k to yesterdays at 152k. The 146 and 152k does only have the difference of more crit(due to legendary gem in MH) and a tad bit more spell power. So yeah, I can try next time I do Elegon to re-gem and such.

    Quote Originally Posted by stiglet View Post
    What you have shown here is that Simcraft is unrealiable and has tolerances. personally, i wouldn't see 500dps loss or increase on Simcraft to prove anything at all. it's just too small a number to really say if your dps will change in a real fight.

    What i do know to be FACT is that intellect, and hence spellpower, is a better stat to aim for than haste. And that is always the case. Some prefer to sacrifice a bit of int when they are very close to the breakpoint, as in maybe swap a full int gem for a int/haste gem or something just to edge them over, but I wouldn't do more than that.

    But, each to their own...
    This kinda didn't answer any of my questions at post #68 though.. :P
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    (my old paladin)Bályn <Reunion> - Silvermoon EU

  11. #71
    Rule of thumb? Use Simcraft to work out your stat weightings. Gem and reforge for whatever it says i.e. if intellect is worth > double haste then gem as much intellect as you can. Go to a dummy and try it out for 5 mins at a time before and after you make changes to see if you notice a real difference in your dps. It's all I can suggest.

    My main point to you was that you shouldn't just rely on what Simcraft says especially with such tiny changes, try a couple of different things. That's what the dummies are there for, so you can compare changes that you make to your own char. And most important of all, if you are far away from the breakpoint don't sacrifice soooooo much int just to acheive it and don't worry so much if you are still below it. It's not worth gemming full haste just to reach it, it isn't going to double your dps!

    As an example, on my char, Simcraft says that if Int is worth 1, then haste is worth 0.48 and mastery and crit are both similar at 0.35 and 0.38 respectively. So, I gem for Int as much as I can and then reforge to haste. I'm 495 i level.
    Last edited by stiglet; 2012-12-21 at 06:27 PM.
    "I never met a miner who complained about the weather"

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by stiglet View Post
    Rule of thumb? Use Simcraft to work out your stat weightings. Gem and reforge for whatever it says i.e. if intellect is worth > double haste then gem as much intellect as you can. Go to a dummy and try it out for 5 mins at a time before and after you make changes to see if you notice a real difference in your dps. It's all I can suggest.

    My main point to you was that you shouldn't just rely on what Simcraft says especially with such tiny changes, try a couple of different things. That's what the dummies are there for, so you can compare changes that you make to your own char. And most important of all, if you are far away from the breakpoint don't sacrifice soooooo much int just to acheive it and don't worry so much if you are still below it. It's not worth gemming full haste just to reach it, it isn't going to double your dps!
    Yeah.. I have no clue how to check my statsweight using simulationcraft. Only times I use simcraft is to check what dps I should be at and to compare the damage over time of simcraft and mine. :P
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    (my old paladin)Bályn <Reunion> - Silvermoon EU

  13. #73
    The Patient Aica's Avatar
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    Here's some very basic reasoning. Since, when averaged, crit is just a damage multiplier, we can create an effective SP "effSP" by multiplying SP by crit for this comparison.

    If we start at 31000 SP and 15% crit (roughly where I am), we get an effSP of 31000 * 1.15 = 35650.

    Trading 600 crit for 600 SP will change our stats to 31600 SP and 14% crit. In this case, we get 31600 * 1.14 = 36024 effSP, which is an increase over the original.

    Trading 600 SP for 600 crit will change our stats to 30400 SP and 16% crit. In this case, we get 30400 * 1.16 = 35264 effSP, which is a decrease over the original.

    Trading 600 SP for 1200 crit will change our stats to 30400 SP and 17% crit. 30400 * 1.17 = 35568, which is still worse than the original.
    Last edited by Aica; 2012-12-21 at 06:30 PM.
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  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by stiglet View Post
    Rule of thumb? Use Simcraft to work out your stat weightings. Gem and reforge for whatever it says i.e. if intellect is worth > double haste then gem as much intellect as you can. Go to a dummy and try it out for 5 mins at a time before and after you make changes to see if you notice a real difference in your dps. It's all I can suggest.

    My main point to you was that you shouldn't just rely on what Simcraft says especially with such tiny changes, try a couple of different things. That's what the dummies are there for, so you can compare changes that you make to your own char. And most important of all, if you are far away from the breakpoint don't sacrifice soooooo much int just to acheive it and don't worry so much if you are still below it. It's not worth gemming full haste just to reach it, it isn't going to double your dps!

    As an example, on my char, Simcraft says that if Int is worth 1, then haste is worth 0.48 and mastery and crit are both similar at 0.35 and 0.38 respectively. So, I gem for Int as much as I can and then reforge to haste. I'm 495 i level.

    This.

    All these ZOMG YOU GEMMED HASTE!? discussions are pointless. When simming you will get very different stat weights depending on the encounter style, number of targets, and the 'skill level' you select (uptime/clean rotation).

    What this means in the real world is that some fights favor different gemming and stat priorities over others, and there is no universal "right" way to gem. There are lot of variables that can skew stat weights in such a way that 2X haste or crit >1X int, resulting in a completely different gemming strategy.

    At the end of the day, we're talking very negligible differences. Focusing on improving your own gameplay and tweaking talents for each fight will net you way more DPS.
    Last edited by Burchoid; 2012-12-21 at 10:38 PM.

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  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by chief View Post
    How low gear are you actually talking about?
    less than 490ilvl.

    all the math I've done is based using a 509ilvl bis set up. using lower ilvl, the haste breakpoints dps increase is significantly lowered.

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  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Drye View Post
    less than 490ilvl.

    all the math I've done is based using a 509ilvl bis set up. using lower ilvl, the haste breakpoints dps increase is significantly lowered.
    Exactly. At 490 i-level, the breakpoint is probably worth changing a single gem to achieve...... maybe.
    "I never met a miner who complained about the weather"

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by stiglet View Post
    Exactly. At 490 i-level, the breakpoint is probably worth changing a single gem to achieve...... maybe.
    Honestly, I only once used 1 320 haste gem in my gear for 1 boss and immediately changed it back after it and refused to gem haste, ever.

    People really need to understand that reaching the 8085 breakpoint is litterally only 2-4 free GCDs during a standstill 6 min fight. And that any movement at all negates those gcds since you spam sw while moving(no procs). This is also considering you have the ability to perfectly refresh sw;p. so if you are not the best player and in anything lower than 490ilvl, it's a significant dps loss to gem haste over int.

    The real dmg comes from the DP tick and DP scales much higher with int at low ilvls. It honestly almost is never viable to gem straight haste to reach break point.
    Last edited by Drye; 2012-12-22 at 04:54 AM.

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  18. #78
    Reaching 8085 might be but reaching DP+2 is basically boosting your damage from DP by 15%(the dot part at least) So lets say DP(instant dmg) and DP(dot) are equivalent, you are boosting every DP global by roughly 7.5%. So it is worth it to gem haste when you are near this cap. No one really cares about SWP+2, but Dp+2 is quite a big dps increase. Of course this is only true when NEAR the haste cap, if you are missing well over 1k haste, I wouldn't go for it, but around 500 haste would mean 2-3 gems max.

    While siming its always nice to plot your haste, gives you a good idea of how much a dps boost getting your next haste plateau is.
    Last edited by Falsified; 2012-12-22 at 05:25 AM.

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