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  1. #1

    [10 M] Stone Guard wiping for 3rd week in a row

    last expansion we were doing Heroic modes in DS but on this one we cannot get past the stone Guard

    Roster has been shifting a lot (especially the tanks) which contributes to our problems on our best attempt we hit the enrage time so not sure if we moved from a tank / heals issue to a dps issue this time any help and pointers is appreciated

    WoL parse (our best attempt)
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/u...?s=3207&e=3709

    comparebot
    http://raidbots.com/comparebot/50cb7...c2#classskills

    Things I've noticed some of our healers could have used their oh shit buttons more but I don't think we are having many heal issues.

  2. #2
    One of your healers and one of your DPS are really low on gear.

    That same healer and another DPS need to learn to move out of the purple stuff. Other than that it looks that you guys were doing things correctly, there are no double overloads, so the boss management looks nicely done.

  3. #3
    Your dps looks pretty low for this encounter. Is everyone switching to attack the dogs who are side by side? The dog who is off getting tanked by himself takes reduced damage.

    You're also casting time warp pretty late in the fight - try casting it just at the beginning, when everyone still has their prepot active. That way the minor dps cooldowns will be up again later.
    Last edited by Ninotchka; 2012-12-14 at 07:28 PM.

  4. #4
    DPS is very very low for everyone in the group. Top parses are 100% higher dps and gear doesn't double dps that quickly. It can be hard to judge why (gearing, playstyle or strat can all contribute). Your disc priest is doing less healing than the DK tank and isn't using his buttons correctly (never used spirit shell, never cast archangel) - pretty basic parts of disc - better to bring a dps and sit him if you are having such dps issues. Looking into each player, I'm seeing some dps issues that come up - warrior's dragon roar never hit? Mage never casts alter time.

    DS had a 30% debuff that let you play poorly and still kill nearly everything, even on heroic, so if your group wants to push into this content, tell them they may need to step up their game and do some class research.

  5. #5
    To be fair that was not the best attempt in particular for the low healer but I'm at a loss when analizing her class here are the rest of the attempts of the night
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/u5yj1mjno58p277m/

    She performs better in them also don't think I can bench her for another dps as I don't think the remaining healers can handle it they were runing on fumes at the end of the fight.

    so things I'm getting

    1.- Bloodlust early
    2.- pre-pot
    3.- get more gear
    4.- Class mechanics to watch (alter time, dragon's roar)

    on your logs what is the lowest dps you have been able to do and not wipe?

  6. #6
    This is normal, right? I don't see any tile buffs, so I assume so (WoL mislabels sometimes).

    (Looking at your linked best attempt) Damage is incredibly low, as others have said. Always prepot. Always. BL on the pull. More gear is not really necessary as long as you're 463+ ilvl (didn't armory anyone). People just need to play better.

    Fire mage is the only class you have that I have any experience with. He appears to be ignoring Pyroblast procs? He got 24 procs, but only used it 15 times. Ignite uptime is only 91.5%, which means he's just not casting sometimes. Living Bomb uptime is pretty low as well. I imagine your other DPS are playing just as badly.

  7. #7
    Aye 10 man normal mode fight so I take it it's not as much a gear Issue and more of a learn to play your class issue?

    dps #1 480 ilvl 42521
    dps #2 484 ilvl 41882
    dps #3 465 ilvl 35893
    dps #4 471 ilvl 30728
    dps #5 468 ilvl 30483
    dps #6 461 ilvl 25261
    Last edited by Soullord; 2012-12-14 at 08:17 PM.

  8. #8
    Your Priest healer is lagging pretty far behind, but your druid is pulling enough HPS to pretty much make up for it. You should be ok there, but any boost can help.

    Your tanks appear to be doing their job since you guys aren't showing bad overloads. I noticed you run two DK tanks, this may cause a problem for you if your healers struggle on Gara'jal because they take in a little more damage than other tanks because they are built around healing themselves back up. This causes an issue because voodoo dolls will take more damage. The tradeoff is that you will have to heal that tank a little less, but be more careful with the other people.

    Your DPS need to step it up some, and make sure they all know that they can use any cleave/multi-dot'ing mechanics available to them.

    General strategies that I would recommend are:

    Bloodlust at the beginning as soon as the first Guardian is Petrifying and the tanks have them in position. There is typically less stuff to avoid and will maximize your damage on the boss.

    Have your shaman alternate using Windwalk totem during Cobalt Petrification and break as many Crystal Traps as possible.

    Keep your tank from moving too much. The Guardians have a decent-sized hitbox and your melee can move quite a bit to avoid Crystal Traps and Amethyst Pools. Try to have him sit tight in a spot as long as he can without taking unnecessary damage or just having melee get completely overloaded with pools and traps.

    If Jasper Guardian is up, everyone should stick close to melee range. If two ranged players get chained together, they can stick together and find safe spots to hold still and maximize damage.

    If there are any other specific aspects that are really giving you trouble just mention them and I'll try and give you some advice and explain how we handle it.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Soullord View Post
    aye 10 man normal mode fight so I take it it's not as much a gear Issue and more of a learn to play your class issue?
    yes.
    seriously the enrage on stone guards is extremely generous

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Soullord View Post
    aye 10 man normal mode fight so I take it it's not as much a gear Issue and more of a learn to play your class issue?
    Yes. People seem to have low uptime on vital debuffs. They're just not playing well. Most of MSV gets pugged on my server regularly (and my server is not exactly fantastic).

    Link them icy-veins. Their class guides are very good. You can also post logs in the appropriate class forums on here for some more help and specific areas your raiders can improve to increase their DPS. Some of them have a sticky for "improve my DPS" posts, so make sure you look for that; else your thread gets deleted.

  11. #11
    Your mage is awful and doesn't know their class worth a damn it looks like. Maybe I'm not reading the logs right but it doesn't look like they used their lvl 90 talent once. Uses scorch instead of fireball. Just bad bad mage. Looks like the rest of your dps is pretty bad too. It's not a gear issue, it's a l2p issue.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    More gear is not really necessary as long as you're 463+ ilvl (didn't armory anyone). People just need to play better.
    It's true that skill > gear but better gear can't do anything but help. Gives you more room for error.

    Something I don't see anyone mentioning is how you handle the tanking. There are 2 ways to tank the fight:

    1: MT tank always tanks 2 dogs. This is more technical for the tanks (both need to taunt when a switch is needed) but easier on the DPS as they don't have to move as much

    2: The tanks just move 1 dog between them as need. Easier on the tanks (only one taunt when a switch is needed) but the DPS need to move more.

    Sounds like your DPS is low (I can't check your logs from work) If you're using method 2, try switching to method 1.

  13. #13
    Your disc priest is pretty bad, but dps is the big issue here. Even in all blues this fight shouldn't be taking 8+ minutes. There are a lot of resources out there for learning to play whatever spec you're looking for. The class forums here usually have pretty good basic guides that you should have your dps read.

    Also make sure people are cleaving or multi-dotting the second dog, if they can.
    Last edited by blargh312; 2012-12-14 at 08:43 PM.
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  14. #14
    That disc priest is bad and that is with Disc being very op at the moment. My best advice is to make every DPS download spellflash and their respective class and just hit the blinking lights so they can not mess up their rotation because currently it's pretty bad on all fronts.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Orphen747 View Post
    It's true that skill > gear but better gear can't do anything but help. Gives you more room for error.
    Better gear won't boost the DPS of a terrible player by as much as it will a great player. Considering everyone in that log is doing 20-40% of what they should, even full LFR gear (the only gear they have access to) is not going to get them a kill.

  16. #16
    I'm confused how so little DPS was even happening. This looks like a case of several possible mistakes: AOE when there's only two targets, not using cleaves, attacking the lone dog, switching the bosses so haphazardly that melee have a lot of downtime (as it does look like the damage there is really bouncy) and plainly just not following basic rotations.

    Honestly, I'd just ask everyone to "double check" their rotations and MoP changes on a few sites (noxxic, icy veins, mmo-c's specific theorycrafting stickies, etc) and especially the disc priest as saving Spirit Shell for the explosions can make it extremely trivial. Our own healer was able to do that when he still hadn't gotten Carapace Breaker (to use his 489 offhand with) until a few weeks ago.
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  17. #17
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    I second the motion to download something such as Spellflash and bang on a target dummy until they become more familiar with the proper rotation/priority (outside of execute, of course). May as well double down on inspecting their reforge and enchants too.

    If any huff and puff for the extra work tell them LFR is as far as they will get because those numbers are simply unacceptable, especially for being such a cleave-friendly fight and having several classes which excel at cleave damage.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Soullord View Post
    Aye 10 man normal mode fight so I take it it's not as much a gear Issue and more of a learn to play your class issue?

    dps #1 480 ilvl 42521
    dps #2 484 ilvl 41882
    dps #3 465 ilvl 35893
    dps #4 471 ilvl 30728
    dps #5 468 ilvl 30483
    dps #6 461 ilvl 25261
    I hate to say it, but looking at the logs and based on those numbers, a lot of your players just need to go back to learning their basic rotation and stat priorities. Some of them are probably still in cataclysm mode and not gemming/enchanting properly (or at all in some cases) or using the wrong rotation. The bottom line is that even at 463 ilvl, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to pull 40k+ on this fight, particularly when there are no Jasper chains forcing you to constantly adjust your position to another person.

    Without going into rotation details, the thing that stands out most to me is that half of your dps aren't even hit/exp capped. To me, that's just unacceptable. Between gems/enchants/reforging, there's no excuse for not getting to those thresholds. Your enhance shaman in particular missed a few lava lashes, your mage missed some pyroblasts, etc. All of these add up to a lot of lost damage that just shouldn't happen.

    Bottom line, assuming you're the raid leader or officer, tell them to get their stuff together if they want to keep raiding. Ignoring such simple things as setting up gear properly and learning rotations should be a basic requirement of raiding and without at least that much effort, you aren't going to get more than a handful of fights down until you seriously overgear them.

  19. #19
    You're 3 healing a 2 heal fight and have 2 of the best self healing tanks, The dps provided sucks also, not to be harsh but that is how it is.

    The priest is doing quite bad hps, but then again as i said it is a 2 heal fight so it may be a case of just being Over kill, hes trying to heal damage that isn't their due to the other 2 healers being faster

    Had a 5 second look at dps, looked at warrior and hes doing around 25k which is awful, and the only other person i looked at was the lwoest dps after the warrior, the mage. The mage used scorch 70 times whereas fireball was as little as 16.
    Overall all dps should pull 35k+ easily, the req i would say should be 50k but it isn't needed for stone guards.

    I think you should tell your raiders to go look up some rotation guides or to sit at a dummy, doing a 6m damage test till they can push a consistant dps number you expect them to pull (50k?).

    I haven't checked too much into the logs as there are so many errors noticed with a quick glance, but i'm assuming the healing is struggling, i noticed the wipe was because of the tanks dying... but also dps died to cobalt mines (lol).

    Fixing the dps by going dummies will help a lot and may be enough to get you the kill, as without fixing dps you will hit enrage but even with the best dps, people shouldnt be standing in the mines, i would point this out that a few died to the mines so that your raiders are aware of it because if they struggle on mines ( not checked in depth but on death overview of that 1 attempt 2+ died to mine), then you will struggle on a lot more fights.

  20. #20
    Our raid leader is the mage my toon is the druid healer but trying to help as much as possible so we can suceed we usually have 2 mobs on 1 tank and the other mob on the OT now that it was mentioned the tanks were moving a bit too much for my taste which could impact the dps.

    Im posting now on the respective class threads to see if I can get some tips to pass around.

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