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  1. #1
    Field Marshal DrakeZ's Avatar
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    Restoration shaman buddy help!

    Hello shaman forum.

    Seeing as there is not any fix my dps/hps sticky at this corner of forum, I have to throw this topic here hoping that someone would take their time and analyze what's the restoration shaman in our guild doing wrong.

    First of all, here is his armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Uriziel/simple

    Here are logs from our latest raid:
    Protectors of the endless hard: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/n...e/?s=508&e=934
    Stone Guard HC: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/n...?s=5398&e=5716
    Feng the Accursed HC: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/n...?s=6465&e=6988

    We were able to kill those encounters, so in the end all is fine, but seeing as he's struggling to even outheal tank (Blood DK on Stone Guard), he might be doing something wrong.

    I would be really glad if someone here could give us an insight of what he's doing wrong. Many thanks in advance!
    Last edited by DrakeZ; 2012-12-14 at 08:36 PM.

  2. #2
    He's at an odd amount of haste, should either go for the next cap of 3764 or just drop as much as he can without dropping below 891.
    Primal elementalist is a better option as a last tier talent for nearly all bosses, ask him to try it out, but it's his choice.
    Riptide uptime is good, Earth shield uptime is pretty dire, maybe get him an aura to track when its not up.
    His spell usage seems pretty decent, and his overhealing is a nice low amount, one could argue that since the bosses are dying, although his output is low, he's doing his job.

    Having said that, he seems to be doing a very small amount of healing with both Healing Tide and Ascendance, not sure whether he's only using these once a fight or just not getting the maximum potential he can out of them. On most decent shaman logs, these two alone make up a fair chunk of overall healing.

    Pass on these comments, and overall he's doing ok, if it comes to the point that you're stuck on a boss and he hasn't increased in output, maybe get him to look into maximising his CDs, and generally spamming a bit more.

  3. #3
    Field Marshal DrakeZ's Avatar
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    Thanks for quick insight Hamerfal!

    Usually he's complaining that being stuck with two absorption based healers (discipline, holy pala) a lot of time he has nothing to heal, but seeing The protector of the endless log, where we were stacked a lot of time, shouldn't his healing be higher? I am just curious if he's not using healing rain optimally on that kill?

  4. #4
    Well as a healer in a 25 man guild where on some fights we use 2x disc and 2x paladins, trust me, I know the feeling! However it doesn't mean we can't compete at all, just makes a big harder to pull the numbers out the bag

    You're correct, apologies, only skipped over the logs. I personally use UE+rain off cd as a 25 man raider, I would imagine that wouldn't be the case in most 10 man encounters, but as you stated, if you're stacked he should be doing the same. Again, maybe get an aura to track when both spells are off cd for maximum uptime. I know rain is a big mana usage spell, but it's too strong not to be used and is definitely worth it as it'll contribute a huge chunk of his healing, not to mention stacking vigor on all members and having ELW rolling around for extra heeeeeps!

  5. #5
    Field Marshal DrakeZ's Avatar
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    Maybe he's just afraid that using HR nearly on cooldown will make him go oom, I don't know really, but again, thanks for useful input.

    Now to convince him there are things he might be doing wrong

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeZ View Post
    Now to convince him there are things he might be doing wrong
    Always fun, best of luck!

  7. #7
    Firstly you shouldn't post other peeps stuff on here, however i see a few things.
    should only need about 4 or 5% haste since it will get the first cap raid buffed.
    Unleash elements should be used on ever healing rain.
    More use of healing rain,chain heal off riptide.
    Less use of GHW and more use of HW on TC. More Riptide, get the glyph untill 4 set is gotten.
    Lose the telluric currents garbage...actually all the glyphs are wrong. Glyph of chaining, Glyph of Riptide and glyph of healing wave should be his glyphs.
    Hes talented into unleashed fury yet doesnt hardly use it.

    there is prolly more but im done lookin.
    do what you feel.

  8. #8
    Field Marshal DrakeZ's Avatar
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    Yeah, he would post it himself, but we are not from an english speaking country, so his english is very bad... Here I am basically posting in his stead. Sorry if it's against some forum rules

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Spacepunch View Post
    Less use of GHW and more use of HW on TC. More Riptide, get the glyph untill 4 set is gotten.
    Lose the telluric currents garbage...actually all the glyphs are wrong. Glyph of chaining, Glyph of Riptide and glyph of healing wave should be his glyphs.
    I know everyone's entitled to their opinion but... what??

    I assume you mean tidal waves, and there's no problem using GHW over HW, especially as he has 2 set.
    Glyph of riptide is pretty aweful, and why would getting the 4 set change anything to mean he could drop it?
    TC isn't garbage, although glyph of healing wave is. The majority of the healing from it goes to overhealing and as you already stated, not like he's using HW a huge amount already, which isn't a bad thing.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Hamerfal View Post
    He's at an odd amount of haste, should either go for the next cap of 3764 or just drop as much as he can without dropping below 891.
    Primal elementalist is a better option as a last tier talent for nearly all bosses, ask him to try it out, but it's his choice.
    Riptide uptime is good, Earth shield uptime is pretty dire, maybe get him an aura to track when its not up.
    His spell usage seems pretty decent, and his overhealing is a nice low amount, one could argue that since the bosses are dying, although his output is low, he's doing his job.

    Having said that, he seems to be doing a very small amount of healing with both Healing Tide and Ascendance, not sure whether he's only using these once a fight or just not getting the maximum potential he can out of them. On most decent shaman logs, these two alone make up a fair chunk of overall healing.

    Pass on these comments, and overall he's doing ok, if it comes to the point that you're stuck on a boss and he hasn't increased in output, maybe get him to look into maximising his CDs, and generally spamming a bit more.
    No resto shaman should be going 3764 haste cap, for one because haste is our worst stat, and 2nd because it's glitched and doesn't add a extra tick to anything like it should.

  11. #11
    Field Marshal DrakeZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unskilled View Post
    No resto shaman should be going 3764 haste cap, for one because haste is our worst stat, and 2nd because it's glitched and doesn't add a extra tick to anything like it should.
    Is this true? I play priest, where haste for holy also does not increase the number of heals from Divine Hymn. (Number of heals is capped no matter the haste, it only shortens the channel time).

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Unskilled View Post
    No resto shaman should be going 3764 haste cap, for one because haste is our worst stat, and 2nd because it's glitched and doesn't add a extra tick to anything like it should.
    Haste is our best throughput stat, the only issue is with added haste comes added mana management.
    Last edited by Hamerfal; 2012-12-15 at 05:54 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Hamerfal View Post
    Haste is our best throughput stat, the only issue is with added haste comes added mana management.

    Been looking at the totem ticks over the last couple of days, at 3764 haste, occasionally you do get another tick of HST, however the majority of the time it only gives 9. I'd imagine this is probably a rounding issue. I tested with a 480 haste gem added to gear, and got extra ticks of both HST and HTT instantly. Will be doing some reforging and testing to try and find a reliable number for a guaranteed extra tick.

    If anyone has done this already and wants to save me the hastle, feel free to say so
    Haste isn't our best throughput stat, it's our best RAW throughput stat but not our best throughput stat. There is much data and math to back this up and support it. Your best secondary stat other than spirit, depends on if you're doing 25 mans or 10. But haste is never our best throughput stat, and again I'll restate this, every piece of data, math, and statistic will show that haste is not our overall best throughput stat because the costs that come with stacking haste compared to other stats.
    Last edited by Unskilled; 2012-12-14 at 11:31 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Unskilled View Post
    Haste isn't our best throughput stat, it's our best RAW throughput stat but not our best throughput stat.
    Difference?

    Not to mention that haste is the most reliable. Mastery relies on the raid being low, crit relies on RNG, haste relies on mana management which is something you can control.

  15. #15
    http://elitistjerks.com/f79/t130574-...aling_5_1_mop/

    Source for how haste cap is broken atm.

    Yes, there is a difference. Haste is our best RAW throughput stat, which means hard casting it will provide the most healing throughput on the current target. At a single target rate, it's only a .005% healing boost over other stats. This being with mastery at 50% and target at 50% hp, and single target crit it provides a .005% healing boost over other stats. The cost of mana management and the small .005% more throughput and the chance of over healing does not prioritize itself over other stats. Crit is RNG, but provides a chance for mana return, and smart healing, which is much more effective than you single target spamming through haste on a target. Mastery plays a important role, and when people are at low numbers, proves more powerful at as a RAW throughput stat than haste itself. About 40% hp mastery becomes more powerful as a Raw throughput stat.
    Last edited by Unskilled; 2012-12-14 at 11:42 PM.

  16. #16
    Thanks for the link, will probably just sit at around 4200 haste at the time being then, seems to provide extra ticks almost every time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unskilled View Post
    At a single target rate, it's only a .005% healing boost over other stats.
    So, you said it yourself. Haste is our best throughput stat. You can argue that crit (if it crits) is more effective due to other factors, or mastery (if the raid is low enough) becomes more effective, but at the end of the day, if ceteris paribus, in terms of pure throughput, haste wins.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Hamerfal View Post
    Thanks for the link, will probably just sit at around 4200 haste at the time being then, seems to provide extra ticks almost every time.



    So, you said it yourself. Haste is our best throughput stat. You can argue that crit (if it crits) is more effective due to other factors, or mastery (if the raid is low enough) becomes more effective, but at the end of the day, if ceteris paribus, in terms of pure throughput, haste wins.
    In terms of Raw throughput.. yes it's our best stat. But there's many other factors that come into play.. I just posted sources with the math and explanations as to why going for higher haste soft caps is not worth it and broken at the moment. Just because it's our best raw throughput doesn't mean it's the best overall throughput which is what you were stating. I don't know what else to say as you're just trying to backtrack to win an argument at this point. If linking and posting sources, then explaining the math isn't as good as you just saying stuff with no actual mathematical numbers behind it then this will just continue so I'll just end it here until you provide some actual sources and proof to what you're trying to say.
    Last edited by Unskilled; 2012-12-14 at 11:58 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Hamerfal View Post
    I know everyone's entitled to their opinion but... what??

    I assume you mean tidal waves, and there's no problem using GHW over HW, especially as he has 2 set.
    Glyph of riptide is pretty aweful, and why would getting the 4 set change anything to mean he could drop it?
    TC isn't garbage, although glyph of healing wave is. The majority of the healing from it goes to overhealing and as you already stated, not like he's using HW a huge amount already, which isn't a bad thing.
    well firstly i did mean tidal waves. 2ndly the 4 set allows for 100% uptime on tidal waves without riptide glyph, meaning to keep TW up w/o 4 set you need the glyph. Also i understand you are mr. pro 25 man raiding guild, but play 10 man and you will heal a hell of a lot differently. Final statement TC glyph is bad if you have time to cast LB in 10 man you have too many healers.
    do what you feel.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Unskilled View Post
    In terms of Raw throughput.. yes it's our best stat. But there's many other factors that come into play..
    Quote Originally Posted by Hamerfal View Post
    Not to mention that haste is the most reliable. Mastery relies on the raid being low, crit relies on RNG, haste relies on mana management which is something you can control.

    I think you're getting confused with the fact that haste is the only raw throughput stat, as it works negatively with mana as opposed to crit and mastery which argueably work with mana.

    So back to my original point

    Quote Originally Posted by Unskilled View Post
    haste is our worst stat
    Quote Originally Posted by Hamerfal View Post
    Haste is our best throughput stat

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Hamerfal View Post
    I think you're getting confused with the fact that haste is the only raw throughput stat, as it works negatively with mana as opposed to crit and mastery which argueably work with mana.

    So back to my original point
    I hate to reply, for the fact you're quoting what I'm saying to twist them to how you want to read them. Haste is our worst stat overall, in terms of overall throughput, it's the best in Raw throughput though. I already explained this and again posted sources and math in order for you to look at them for yourself. Quoting what I say out of context without the full or overall message that I posted is taking it out of terms and context and just childish.

    http://elitistjerks.com/f79/t130574-...aling_5_1_mop/

    Source for how haste cap is broken atm.

    Yes, there is a difference. Haste is our best RAW throughput stat, which means hard casting it will provide the most healing throughput on the current target. At a single target rate, it's only a .005% healing boost over other stats. This being with mastery at 50% and target at 50% hp, and single target crit it provides a .005% healing boost over other stats. The cost of mana management and the small .005% more throughput and the chance of over healing does not prioritize itself over other stats. Crit is RNG, but provides a chance for mana return, and smart healing, which is much more effective than you single target spamming through haste on a target. Mastery plays a important role, and when people are at low numbers, proves more powerful at as a RAW throughput stat than haste itself. About 40% hp mastery becomes more powerful as a Raw throughput stat.

    Copy'd and pasted, just to get the point across again. You're trying to win an argument, I'm trying to provide facts in order to help OP. Please be useful instead of just trying to be childish.
    Last edited by Unskilled; 2012-12-15 at 12:18 AM.

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