Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst
1
2
3
  1. #41
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Tampa Bay, Florida
    Posts
    4,503
    Quote Originally Posted by volrath50 View Post
    Yeah, for uncoordinated social guilds, a lot of them cannot get past Stone Guard. I'd really be curious to know how many are stuck there. I know my brothers are in a social guild that cleared 30% nerfed normal Dragon Soul, but have not managed to get Stone Guard below 70% in over 50+ wipes.
    Before I stopped playing WoW, my fairly casual guild had a ton of trouble on (normal) Stone Guard (this was like third week of xpac), mostly because IMO there is/was WAY too much stuff going on (i.e. too much AOE/crap on the floor, the frost mine things were annoying as shit, etc). I think that fight was a little overtuned for the first boss of what was meant to be an entry-level raid in an entry-level raid tier; it would have been better if you could tank swap like you did in the LFR version (i.e. you could soak 2+ overloads and it was a simple tank swap where MT has 2, OT has one, without really caring which one has what apart from MT always having the one that's petrifying, not the juggling "Which one is going to overload next, tank that one away, oh wait it's the other one now let's switch" kind of stuff which should have been for Heroic mode only; that made it REALLY annoying as a tank because you had to juggle keeping them apart with being in taunt range, and constant shadow puddles/mines while you're trying to run to your fellow tank to taunt the other one off of him, that kind of nonsense. It made for a really hectic fight that didn't need to be half as hectic).
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2012-12-22 at 03:28 AM.

    Raids & Dungeons Moderator | Twitch Stream | Wayniac#1291


  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    Before I stopped playing WoW, my fairly casual guild had a ton of trouble on (normal) Stone Guard (this was like third week of xpac), mostly because IMO there is/was WAY too much stuff going on (i.e. too much AOE/crap on the floor, the frost mine things were annoying as shit, etc). I think that fight was a little overtuned for the first boss of what was meant to be an entry-level raid in an entry-level raid tier; it would have been better if you could tank swap like you did in the LFR version (i.e. you could soak 2+ overloads and it was a simple tank swap where MT has 2, OT has one, without really caring which one has what apart from MT always having the one that's petrifying, not the juggling "Which one is going to overload next, tank that one away, oh wait it's the other one now let's switch" kind of stuff which should have been for Heroic mode only; that made it REALLY annoying as a tank because you had to juggle keeping them apart with being in taunt range, and constant shadow puddles/mines while you're trying to run to your fellow tank to taunt the other one off of him, that kind of nonsense. It made for a really hectic fight that didn't need to be half as hectic).
    Stone Guards was a lot of fun for me. It made me a much better tank and its so much more interactive than tank and spanking bosses like Morchok.

  3. #43
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Tampa Bay, Florida
    Posts
    4,503
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Stone Guards was a lot of fun for me. It made me a much better tank and its so much more interactive than tank and spanking bosses like Morchok.
    Oh yeah don't get me wrong I certainly didn't want another Morchok, although I do believe that every dungeon SHOULD have a Patchwerk-style DPS check boss early on just as a gauge of "Are you ready for this raid?". Just I know I found it to be very frustrating for my entire group, mostly because there felt like there was just too much going on at the same time. I'm all for raid awareness, but there was a lot of things on that fight. I would have liked if they were more like Omnitron in T11 (can't speak to heroic as I never got that far but normal pre-nerf was a fun and interesting fight; one of my favorites in the game). All I know is my guild hit a major wall on them even after we downed them, and it was a major factor in my getting burned out from WoW (among other things, it wasn't the only reason). This from someone who, while I wouldn't dare call myself an elite/hardcore raider, was somewhat successful throughout Cataclysm. I might invite the flames, but it felt like they didn't learn much of anything from T11. They said they were going a bit back to the Wrath style, but IMHO T14 was more like unnerfed T11; a huge wall for the somewhat casual guilds. With Stone Guard, again, I thought that was primarily because the mechanics were fairly hard to juggle at once, and there was just too many things that could muck you up; getting pinned on the opposite side of the room as a tank because there's a line of goop that you have to move from was annoying as hell (even as a Warrior who could Leap). It just felt way overtuned for what it was meant to be, and what it was presented as (and in fact I stated as much in my "Why are you cancelling" note to Blizzard), and to be honest it was partly the last straw when I was already frustrated with WoW.

    Raids & Dungeons Moderator | Twitch Stream | Wayniac#1291


  4. #44
    Stone guards were the same for T14 what magmaw was for T11 thats all - people who cleared the nerfed ICC couldnt kill magmaw the same way as people who killed nerfed DS coudlnt kill stone guards. I could bet that quite a few guilds who killed 1-2 HC bosses in DS would have quite a lot of problems to clear normal DS if they would turn off the buff back then. thats all what happened.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Stone Guards was a lot of fun for me. It made me a much better tank and its so much more interactive than tank and spanking bosses like Morchok.
    They key here is that you are probably a good player. Not every casual guild is going to have the luxury of getting 2 good tanks. If you took a group of 8 very above average dps/healers and 2 below average (or even bad) tanks, you will never kill stone guard.

    If this was a heroic fight, or a fight later in the tier, this would be ok. But this is basically saying, unless you have 2 skilled tanks, you will never kill a single tier 14 raid boss. This seems pretty rough.

  6. #46
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Tampa Bay, Florida
    Posts
    4,503
    Quote Originally Posted by Halifax View Post
    They key here is that you are probably a good player. Not every casual guild is going to have the luxury of getting 2 good tanks. If you took a group of 8 very above average dps/healers and 2 below average (or even bad) tanks, you will never kill stone guard.

    If this was a heroic fight, or a fight later in the tier, this would be ok. But this is basically saying, unless you have 2 skilled tanks, you will never kill a single tier 14 raid boss. This seems pretty rough.
    As a tank the main thing which stumped me and my co-tank was positioning. We had to keep them apart far enough, but had to constantly move (ice traps and purple goop), but had to be close enough to switch. Many attempts I would be on nearly the opposite end of the room due to moving away from crap on the ground, and would have to run through a bunch of avoidable things to get within Taunt range.

    As I said I think that fight would have been a lot more adequately tuned if you ONLY needed to switch the active guard, and not the constant "Okay swap so the next higher one isn't getting energy" thing (which should have been required for Heroic to make it more challenging).

    What didn't sell me is the fact that they made the same mistake as T11, as kamuimac suggested. Many guilds broke up at the start of Cata because they could do the then-nerfed ICC without much difficulty (normal, ofc), but ran into a huge wall in the first boss(es) of T11 that many people couldn't even overcome until the nerfbat hit. It really felt to me that Blizzard learned nothing from Cataclysm since they kept that same thing; people who could roll through even heroic DS with the nerf ran into a wall on the first boss of a normal raid, and what they kept saying was the first raid in a "Wrath-like" expansion (which it didn't seem like but that's neither here nor there), hell I cleared normal DS before the nerfs (second week it was out) and Stone Guard was just a huge wall. The fact that Feng and even Gara'jal were easier to learn (note I didn't say "easier" in difficulty, just in learning the fight) than Stone Guard is quite telling IMO.

    Raids & Dungeons Moderator | Twitch Stream | Wayniac#1291


  7. #47
    One thing - i dont mind the difficulty of stone guards - just saying how this migth look like for a lot of so called casual/social guilds - spirit kings would make a hell lotta better first boss - cause there u still have plenty mechanics to pay atention too but in difficulty its 10 times easier then stone guards. I only dont want a situation like that- that many players will get bored of dailies grinds - they are to little skilled to overcome SG and then they will quit game for some time - blizzard will see subs droping and makes net raid with DS lv of difficulty and boringness -_-
    Also the other thing which is stoping some social/casual guilds from progress is the lack of good players alts - even with 5.1 repx2 after revered changes famring daileis for reps is at least 2 weeks for each alt -_- and not many players have enough endurance to do this on multiple chars now that tabards are removed.

  8. #48
    Herald of the Titans Joyful's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    laughcity
    Posts
    2,653
    This is quite accurate.
    And I would actually say that some bosses aren't difficult =/= pulls on a boss. This would be stuff like if you read up on a specific fight or not, or if you've got a good setup or w/e. Or simply if you simply lack healing and that might cause more issues on one fight over another.

    [00:59:24] Nick | Hunty: im a huntysexual

  9. #49
    I haven't read the entire thread, so this might have been said already, but Blizzard gave raiders some easier bosses as some kind of reward for beating harder ones before. You mention the example of BWL with Vael being some kind of roadblock before lashlayer, firemaw, ebonroc and flamegor. Another example would be Winterchill in MH as a reward of beating Vashj and Kael (actually, pretty much all of MH and BT was easier than those two) with Kael probably being one of the most demanding bosses in the expansion aside from the gearchecks in Sunwell.
    I don't agree with Amber Shaper being that hard to be honest. It's a mechanics fight and people will get it down eventually, but it is not a gearcheck or so and all it takes is a lucky try with two people being transformed that know how to drive the construct. Empress on the other hand is still a nightmare when i do it on my alt, as tanks tend to get gibbed by the adds, this is both due to being undergeared and not having experiences with hard hitting multi target add fights. Every time I see a warrior hit his shockwave with 4 Windblades on him I check my invis cooldown because I'm quite sure he's going to die.

    The first three bosses in Terrace are indeed quite a pushover, with Lei Shi at least requiring some kind of coordination on Add CC and Sha being kind of a gear check but otherwise a very boring fight (on normal that is).

  10. #50
    I wish you did same thing for heroic difficulity.

  11. #51
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    3,027
    Over all it seems like a fair estimate but I'd like to add a few things:

    1. Stone Guards with chains and traps up can be nasty for a lot of casual guilds - specially at the beginning of the Tier.

    2. Elegon is mostly about people not using a proper tactic i.e not preparing well enough.

    3. Wind Lord is a joke, unless you fail at simple things. It's basically a "retard check" imo. CC, interrupts, dispel, don't stand in bad stuff - this I consider to be stuff you should have learned when you first started playing your class.

    4. Amber Shaker - again a "retard check". Ain't that hard to look at your screen and press 2 when DBM tells you to. Ain't that hard to NOT heal the person with the debuff either. But it's surely harder than Wind Lord.

    5. Shek'zeer is a dps/healing check if anything. Nothing special to that fight and thus it's not really harder than say Elegon or Garalon.

    When it comes to Terrace though, I have to agree. All of the bosses in Terrace are a complete joke on Normal and would have served better as the first raid, rather than the last. But that's not including Heroic Mode, where things change and that's what the bosses are "balanced" around in the end.

    And when you talk about "gating issues", then I have to say, that if you can't defeat Normal Amber Shaper or Shek'zeer, then you don't really "deserve" to continue into Terrace. Cause end bosses are always harder than the first bosses in an instance. But I think that because there's 3 raids available, people think they should automatically be able to enter them right away. Your option is to farm the easier bosses, get more gear and then attempt the end bosses again.

    Several of the bosses you list as "cock blocks" or "hard" is about researching and people not playing with their heads up their ass tbh.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    Several of the bosses you list as "cock blocks" or "hard" is about researching and people not playing with their heads up their ass tbh.
    But of course they are -_- and nobody is arguing with that - but the fact is that mojority of player base have weak to nonexistent skills in comparison to the top 5-10% of top players who are most usually raiders - and this 90 % is extremly unhappy when they cant touch the content - and they are the target audience now - hence lfr - blizzard already stated that if not lfr it would be hard to justify the exiustence of raid at all to activision - sio\mple why make content for 5% of playerbase when rest 95 % has no chance to clear it when its current - but the reality is hard - nobody even those weak players care about lfr - cause there is no 10 players lfr difficulty in raid , and such weak players dont organize the guild lfr runs to have fun -_- and i could bet that if blizzard would make anouther difficulty in 10 man - lfr as synonim of easy below normal even if it share lockout - peopel would be more then interesten in doing it with organized social guild group.
    and dont tell me that anyone is interested in old content - we will see it in few months when 5.2 will come out - good players will be in new raid and weak players still wont be able to kill most old encounters due to mechanics. even if they overgear it.

  13. #53
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Tampa Bay, Florida
    Posts
    4,503
    I've always been of the mindset that raids should progressively teach you. That means you start out easy and get harder as you go, perhaps with a second "loot pinata" boss after a particularly challenging boss as a freebie. Especially when you have three raids in what was meant to be the "entry-level" tier you should IMO have not only the bosses in this fashion but the raids as well. So for instance MSV should have been relatively easy. I mean early Naxx 2.0 bosses or Sarth+0 easy, because it's the "Raiding 101" tier. You then make HOF a deal more difficult overall, since now you can easily farm MSV and make progress in HOF while you're farming MSV, and then TES is harder still because it's the "end" raid of the tier, so while you're progressing in TES you're farming MSV and HOF, so it's not a lost cause.

    In such a scenario a casual guild that struggles in HOF doesn't feel totally dejected because hey, they can go and farm MSV every week and have some progression nights in HOF. Instead, MSV isn't exactly a cakewalk for the vast majority of players, with Stone Guard being a big factor IMHO, so you get guilds that just like in T11 feel totally worthless and dejected because they can't make progress AT ALL. It's a much nicer feeling if you're struggling on a few of the later bosses in a raid, but have the early ones on farm, than to just hit a wall on the first boss because you feel like you can't do anything at all.

    IMO the two things Blizzard needs to learn from past mistakes is A) If you have multiple raids in a tier the initial raid needs to be pretty damn easy to serve as an introduction, because you'll always have new people who need to first LEARN how to raid (and no LFR doesn't count because you ignore most mechanics in LFR), and you want to throw even the most casual of guilds a bone to whet their appetite on the raid; you don't make all the content so easy they can faceroll it, but you give them something to look forward to (the harder raids) while making them feel good about themselves (by allowing them to farm the easymode raid each week), and B) Having guilds on different tiers of content is not the end of the world and isn't a bad thing. Having moved to Rift that's one thing I enjoy - it's about YOUR progress, not how you stack up to everyone else. If you're still on the first tier when there are three tiers out, it's not a big deal; in WoW Blizzard got the idea that everyone has to be on the third tier.

    Raids & Dungeons Moderator | Twitch Stream | Wayniac#1291


  14. #54
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    3,027
    But from what I read in the OP's original post, there is actually a complaint about gating in this Tier. And my answer to that, is something a lot of people will disagree with.

    But if you struggle on Normal Elegon with the gear even the casual raider should/could have by now, you aren't ready to venture into HoF and thus shouldn't be complaining about the gating. But it's the "I pay the same fee, I am entitled to see the same content" mentality. Yes you are entitled to see the same content and at the same time as everyone else, if you L2P (a bit harsh, I know).

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •