1. #1

    So, AoE rotations

    Anyone who has spent some time on it and is willing to share: What's yours? Not quite sure how to math out stuff like, the opportunity cost of not being able to cast anything else during Barrage, myself.

    LF thoughts on switching from GT to Barrage, using LnL, Multi as BM, etc.

  2. #2
    From my point of view, SV is the only viable aoe spec. After the recent SRS buff even more so. When it comes to the rotation in a multi target fight, using explo trap instead of BA, keeping SrS roling on all targets and specing into TotH is common knowlege. In my opinion the questions that need to be answered are 1) When do ein stop using ES without a LnL procc, 2) Is a beneficial to use GT? and 3) How many enemys does it need to make MS more powerfull than ES with a LnL procc?

    1) For me my MS has higher dmg per execut than my ES when it hits 3 or more targets. With a TotH procc the MS (20 focus) is the clear winner against the ES (25focus). Leaving out static focus reg and the reg through SrS, using ES without LnL and reging the focus with CrS gives you higher dps than using MS without Toth and reging focus with CrS when fighting against 3 enemys. This changes when your fighting 4 enemys when using MS gives you higher dps.

    2) I don't feel fit enough to answere this question. It simply has too many varialbes. When using GT I never know how many enemys its going to hit. One thing I use it for is when being close to focus cap and fishing for a Toth procc.

    3) This question again is easier to answere and just requires some math. For my current gear casting MS with Toth and reging focus through CrS needs to hit atleast 8.3 targets to make it more beneficial than using up my LnL proccs. In an ideal world using up a Toth procc only with MS gives you a 90% chance to triger a new one. I translated this to a 10% increase for MS's focuscost. Which increases the number of target required to 8.9. When you are facing 9 or more enemys, stop using ES alltogether and just use MS and Explo Trap.

    Some of my logic might be flawed but I think I'm pretty close to the truth.

    PS: If some one is interested I can provide some more precise maths.

  3. #3
    I usually use ES only when LnL procs and Dire Beast for focus regen. Other than that prio is Expl Trap > MS > Glaive Toss > Dire Beast > ES > CS.
    I use a mouseover macro for Glaive Toss, so I can try to hit as many mobs as possible.
    I use MS when targets are 3 or more, and Expl Trap when they're 2 or more. I have no maths to confirm this but I always top meters by far on AoE.
    Also, I don't see any fight where you should specifically spec for AoE.

    If you speak of BM I'd keep the same rotation tbh, maybe switching Glaive Toss with MS, but your dmg will be way lower than SV.

  4. #4
    I don't think dismissing BM AoE is a good idea. As Crooklyn pointed out, the damage buff on Wind Lord makes BM's AoE mechanic suddenly a lot more viable. Besides, there may be situations where AoE forms a small enough part of the fight that BM may be better overall. Still, you will need to AoE at the appropriate time.

    1) Using ES outside of LnL amounts to a single target rotation with an explosive trap. Last I saw, SimC set the 'spam MS' threshold to 3, not 4 targets. And 5 for BM.

    2) Another problem to consider with GT is that it will miss if the target is moving.

    3) The LnL thing is useful, thanks for that. What's the math behind it and how gear-dependent is it?

    Personally I try to avoid TotH as much as possible because it fucks up my rotation so much.

    Subquestion to Barrage vs GT: Empress/Un'sok/Any place with both AoE and single target portions, how do you go about calculating potential dps loss/gain between the two talents?

  5. #5
    First of all, I took all of the following numbers from my logs. Right now my gear has an average Ilevel of 494 and I have the 4pc bonus. That's all I can say in regards to gear scaling.

    Dmg/Execute:
    ES: 95647
    MS+Imp SrS: 34284
    CrS: 29922
    Statick CrS casting speed: 1.7sec

    Assumption: All the focus spend needs to be regged via CrS. All other means of focus reg (static, SrS, racial) are equal to all scenarios.

    1) When looking at the difference between ES and MS one has to take the different amount of CrS into account, that need to be cast. ES costs 25 focus, MS without Toth 40 focus and CrS reggs 14 focus. A rotation only consisting of ES and CrS and wich is focus neutral includes 25 CrS and 14 ES. Total Dmg: (25*29922) + (14*95647) = 2087108. Time Spend: (25*1.7) + (14*1) = 56,5sec => Dmg/sec 2087108/56,5 sec = 36939 dmg/sec. Now lets see how many target my MS needs to hit to equal those dps. A focus neutral rotaion cosists of 20 CrS and 7 MS. Time Send in the rotation: (20*1.7) + (7*1) = 41 sec. Dmg needed to be done to equal the ES/CrS-rotaion: 41sec*36939 dmg/sec = 1514499. This leeds us to the following: (20*29922) + (7*X*34284) >= 1514499 ( X=number of targets beeing hit by MS). X>=3.817.
    Result: While NOT beeing under the influence of Toth and fighting against less than 3.817 enemys spaming MS is a LOSS in dps.

    3) Equal math to the above:
    Assuming a 90% Toth uptime: MS cost 22 focus.
    Focus neutral MS/CrS-Rotaion: 11 CrS, 7 MS, Time spend: (11*1.7) + (7*1) = 25.7sec. Dmg done casting free ES (using up LnL proccs): 25.7*95647 = 2458128
    (11*29922) + (7*X*34284) >= 2458128. >>> X=8.87
    Conclusion: Spaming MS and regging focus spend through casting Crs is a dps increase when fighting against more than 8.87 enemys.

  6. #6
    Survival, specced into ToTH and Glaive Toss for 100% of the fights. First off, I never open without a misdirection up, I can't do giant deeps if I pull aggro and die. So it goes:

    Misdirect > first Multi-shot > Glaive Toss > subsequent multi-shots > Kill Shot > Exlosive Trap
    Glaive toss and Explode trap used on CD, multishot whenever I have the focus for it whether ToTH or not, and when out of focus I burn my LnL procs if I have any, if not I use a cobra shot or two until I have enough focus for more multishots.

    I always say that I'm just pressing multi-shot really hard, but in reality there's quite a bit of nuance to getting the most out of your AOE dps. I've only ever been beaten in a 4+ target AOE situation once, by a blood DK of all things, so I'd say that my rotation works well enough to get by.

  7. #7
    If you feel TotH is mandatory for AoE, take a look at:



    Not saying he's correct, but I'm guessing there was some reasoning behind that particular rotation.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by gulder View Post
    If you feel TotH is mandatory for AoE, take a look at:
    Not saying he's correct, but I'm guessing there was some reasoning behind that particular rotation.
    Pretty sure he was specced into ToTH? Looked like most of his multishots were only costing him 20, but its hard to tell with his UI.

  9. #9
    No, he was using Fervor. You can see the eye icon for it in his actionbar.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by gulder View Post
    No, he was using Fervor. You can see the eye icon for it in his actionbar.
    Ooohhhh... interesting. Haha, I forgot fervor was even an option.

  11. #11
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    I feel like Barrage might be the way to go on some fights because of movement. GT gets shit on when tanks move things.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Zerato View Post
    I feel like Barrage might be the way to go on some fights because of movement. GT gets shit on when tanks move things.
    Can't say that it's true but I read that the better weapon you have, the better barrage gets than glaive toss (heroic fang or normal lei shi, I guess.)

  13. #13
    Once I have my H lei shi gun with the 8 bonus levels Asia get, I'm going barrage for everything.

  14. #14
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    Rogerbrown has vocally expressed his dislike of ToTH in the hunting party podcast. He likes the control of Fervor. His feeling is that you'll do better DPS with what you're comfortable with/what you can control more than what you can't control.

  15. #15
    ToTH is by far the best choice for sustained aoe there is no debate. The amount of Imp SrS dmg you gain from ToTH just destroys any potential gain from being able to control your focus better through fervor.

    And with GT, it does do more damage than barrage overall but that is if you can position it perfectly to hit ALL targets. And spending a few seconds trying to target the farthest add in a pack (eg windlord), especially when atleast for me, the nameplates have a seizure whenever there are too many mobs together, will just end up being a dps loss. So barrage would be better since it's a 'smart' shot and will hit all targets.

  16. #16
    Assuming you hit all the targets involved, anyone know at how many targets Barrage>GT? Or are you saying technically GT is always better?

    Wish I could configure SimC to show this, but more than one target simply isn't working right for me :/
    Last edited by gulder; 2012-12-16 at 09:54 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by gulder View Post
    Assuming you hit all the targets involved, anyone know at how many targets Barrage>GT? Or are you saying technically GT is always better?

    Wish I could configure SimC to show this, but more than one target simply isn't working right for me :/
    You can just see how much damage each do per use in simcraft/female dwarf and use some math to find out.

    Using Barrage with 2/2 upgraded N Fang Kung is simming at 2698.01 less than GT for me.

    GT is at 6477.30 dps and Barrage is at 4918.04 dps for me.

    The main target of GT gets hit for 4 times more than the other targets. Meaning (6477.30 / 4) = 1619.325 per target (presuming you are always hitting the targets).

    Barrage does half the damage to the adds than the boss. Meaning (4918.04 / 2) = 2459.02 per target (presuming you are always hitting the targets).

    One extra target would yield you 8096.625 with GT and 7377.06 with Barrage. Adding another target would give you 9715.95 with GT and 9836.08 with barrage. So with a 497 ilvl ranged weapon it would appear that barrage would be better with 3+ targets constantly. Now, with fights like H wind lord it has gimmick mechanics. 600% extra damage done only to the boss for 30 seconds. Meaning the dps of them get's multiplied by 600%.

    GT becomes 38863.8 dps and Barrage becomes 29508.24. A 9355.56 difference in favor of glaive toss. So in this specific instance it would take 12 targets for barrage to be better than glaive toss.

    GT: (1619.325 *12) + 38863.8 = 58295.7
    Barrage: (2459.02*12)+ 29508.24 = 59016.48

    Of course this wouldn't be taking into account the aoe portion of the fight.

    Here is my log

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/a...?s=1010&e=1359

    We had 6 targets up plus the boss for the first minute, which means

    GT: 16193.25 dps
    Barrage : 19672.16 dps

    So a 3478.91 difference at the beginning but that drops very significantly when the you kill the adds and gain the 600% damage buff.

    After that only 3 are up at a time

    GT: 11335.275
    Barrage: 12295.1

    So a 959.825 difference after the beginning when the 3 adds die.

    When added together you'd get a 4438.735 dps gain with barrage and a 9355.56 one with GT. Nothing huge and this isn't factoring the loss of 2-3 GCDs every burn phase from barrage, so the gap would get even bigger.


    *napkin math, I didn't go too in-depth cause I wanted to get my point across.

    Using H taoren 2/2 in my sims show that
    GT is at 6310.63 and Barrage is at 6126.12 meaning a 184.51 dps difference. So iggie, it looks like you should use barrage when you get 4/4 H taoren. Not sure how this would work out on some fights but a measly 184.51 dps difference can make it so much better on some fights.
    Last edited by Tehstool; 2012-12-16 at 11:35 AM.

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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    The main target of GT gets hit for 4 times more than the other targets. Meaning (6477.30 / 4) = 1619.325 per target (presuming you are always hitting the targets).
    I mentioned that on the other thread alleady, but your assumption is theoretically wrong. GT does hit the maintarget for 4x the damage, but the secondary targets get hit twice for 100% of the damage (once on the way to the target, once on the way back)
    in practice I assume it can happen that when secondary targets are really close to the maintarget, that they only get hit once.
    but to assume they never get hit twice is just wrong and undervalues GT.

    in theory all 3 t6 talents should do 100% dmg maintarget, 50% to seconady targets. which is obvious out of a balancing perspective

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTrueM4gg0t View Post
    I mentioned that on the other thread alleady, but your assumption is theoretically wrong. GT does hit the maintarget for 4x the damage, but the secondary targets get hit twice for 100% of the damage (once on the way to the target, once on the way back)
    in practice I assume it can happen that when secondary targets are really close to the maintarget, that they only get hit once.
    but to assume they never get hit twice is just wrong and undervalues GT.

    in theory all 3 t6 talents should do 100% dmg maintarget, 50% to seconady targets. which is obvious out of a balancing perspective
    Ah, I see. Sorry about that I should've done more research. With GT doing 50% damage to the other targets, that just messes up my whole post. Barrage would only be used in a case where GT cant hit all the targets for some reason.

    Just ignore my above post =(

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  20. #20
    I disagree with your basic assumption Tehstool (it scales linearly with number of adds), but besides that yeah, I get what you're saying.

    In terms of number of hits, I spent some time on the dummies to verify exactly how many targets GT hits. These are my conclusions:

    Target lies within ellipse formed by the two inner edges of the glaives = gets hit 4x = 1/2*2*4x (i.e. half the main target damage)
    Target lies along inner edge of glaives = gets hit 3x = 3/8*8x
    Target lies along center of either glaive = gets hit 2x = 1/4*8x
    Target lies along outer edge/a short distance away from the glaive itself = gets hit 2x = 1/4*8x
    Target is even further away from the glaive = gets hit 1x = 1/8*8x

    As long as you're not completely unable to hit 2 targets or more, and your main target isn't moving, GT looks like the clear winner.

    Really wish I could sim it though :/
    Last edited by gulder; 2012-12-16 at 03:00 PM.

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