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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemons View Post
    Yea, just remove those. Who needs burst in PvP nowadays anyways? A match shouldn't end until each healer is totally and completely oom. That's true entertainment...watching two mana pools slowly deplete.
    Shadow Blades provides very little burst, unless you're running Subtlety and you've got the Find Weakness debuff running. Killing Spree is an abominable source for burst, due to its completely random nature. You're lucky if you actually manage to hit your target, never mind the problem of actually surviving the Killing Spree yourself. Chances are, the only one who's going to die will be yourself....

    Killing Spree is a horrible cooldown due to the fact that you lose control over your character for too long a period of time without compensation. You're not granted immunity to any source of damage, nor can you get rid of your excess energy. It fucks your character and it fucks your rotation. It's simply not very well designed.

    Shadow Blades is bad and should feel bad for the reasons I've mentioned in my previous post.

  2. #22
    Why do people lump all new-from-Cataclysm rogues in with the Dragon Soul, flavor of the month, I WANT MY SHINY ORANGE rogues? There's a few of us that started before Dragon Soul, you know!

    Kidding aside, I don't think that Rogues need a buff in 5.2. Our talent tree is going to get looked at, so that MIGHT be a buff, but other than that, I think they will be messing with other DPS spec's output so much that keeping us "as is" (for the most part) would be more beneficial.

    What I would hope for, however, is this:
    - Preparation or Shadowstep is made baseline.
    - I'd hope Shuriken Toss gets made baseline (so few Rogues even know that it exists right now...).
    - I have a hunch that they'll mess with Crit for non-Sub rogues.
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
    Rogue - Warlock

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    Shadow Blades should definitely be looked at again; It needs to either get the Ascendance treatment (Have different effects depending on which spec it's being used in) or be made Combat exclusive, while new cooldowns would be made for Subtlety and Assassination.
    I was actually thinking about PVP. Shadow Blades + Anticipation is actually pretty good if you build up two eviscerates then blow a trinket (assuming you don't save it for shadow dance).

    Assassination is a shit non-interactive spec. Blizz gutted it. You may as well delete it from the game. Mutilate Mutilate Envenom, Mutilate Mutilate Envenom, Mutilate Mutilate Envenom into infinity and beyond.

    So how about we add even more cooldowns so that we have more buttons to press?

    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    And if rogues get big buffs while all other cc gets nerfed we may get put on that hotfix rollercoaster.

    It kind of annoyed me in beta when I saw pallys got ashbringer when they used holy avenger and shadow blades was some shit took 2mins of work animation with a weird sound.
    If Blizz make rogues OP again, I bet that Blizz will just leave us alone for half a year like they always do because there are so few of them.

    As for Shadow Blades, I'd like to see our blades on fire more when we use it. IMO the talent is a bit too passive. It should increase the damage of non-auto-attacks too.
    "These people, Adam, they're like ghosts. Always in the shadows. Always hiding behind lies and proxy soldiers. I need you to find them. They cannot stop us. They cannot stop the future".

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    - I have a hunch that they'll mess with Crit for non-Sub rogues.

    Why this? as sublety right now, reforging 3%hit > 4.5% expertise > mastery => crit > haste, i only have 16% crit, and no talents to make it higher.

    going full crit > mastery > haste leaves you with around 20% crit, but your eviscerates won't be very high :P

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post

    If Blizz make rogues OP again, I bet that Blizz will just leave us alone for half a year like they always do because there are so few of them.

    As for Shadow Blades, I'd like to see our blades on fire more when we use it. IMO the talent is a bit too passive. It should increase the damage of non-auto-attacks too.
    Well by big buffs I meant more putting rogues back where they were in cata (not s11) which would have to be big buffs since they took so much of that away, and assassination and combat would need a lot of work to be brought up to that lvl.

    Buff talk aside I wonder if they are going to do anything to make all our tier's themes make sense like other classes. Like removing things that don't make sense in there tiers like deadly throw in t2 and prep in t3 and the whole t5 and t6 lol.

  6. #26
    I'm looking forward to the changes. I might cancel my sub until then. It's frustrating that we had to sit out the start of this expansion.

    Also, the interrupt on Deadly Throw shouldn't cost 5 points to use (unless they nerfed all other silences). That's a really fun talent.
    "These people, Adam, they're like ghosts. Always in the shadows. Always hiding behind lies and proxy soldiers. I need you to find them. They cannot stop us. They cannot stop the future".

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    It really isn't. It happens to be a great spell on Combat because of its great synergy with the spec. However, it's very uninteresting for Assassination, a spec that doesn't rely on auto attack damage, or Subtlety, a spec that doesn't need increased combo point generation or armor-bypassing.

    Shadow Blades should definitely be looked at again; It needs to either get the Ascendance treatment (Have different effects depending on which spec it's being used in) or be made Combat exclusive, while new cooldowns would be made for Subtlety and Assassination.
    I agree 100% and as for rogues in general atm i'm having to outgear my guild en general to stay competitive so some people still in some blues it feels like.

  8. #28
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umDr0mPuyQc What every class would say if..If.. they would buff rogue's

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkblazer View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umDr0mPuyQc What every class would say if..If.. they would buff rogue's
    I play a Hunter and I would like to see Rogues getting a little PvP buff.

    WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW!?
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise (Eternity), Bolt, Frostfang, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Incinerator, ascended medium armor.

  10. #30
    Make Shadowstep 12 second cooldown (instead of 24) and baseline for a start.

    Now, all it'd need is a stun and it would be as good as a Warriors gap closer :/

    (oh wait, Warrios charge gives you extra rage/energy too.. oh well)

    Crimson Tempest : Also stuns all targets within 10 yards for 4 seconds. (This effect can only happen once every 20 seconds)


    IF, as it seems, we're not going to be getting anymore burst damage, then reduce diminishing returns on stuns a little maybe, so if we can't burst them down quicker, we can at least stun them for a while longer to get some more damage in.
    Last edited by rogueMatthias; 2012-12-17 at 01:34 AM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    Shadow Blades provides very little burst, unless you're running Subtlety and you've got the Find Weakness debuff running. Killing Spree is an abominable source for burst, due to its completely random nature. You're lucky if you actually manage to hit your target, never mind the problem of actually surviving the Killing Spree yourself. Chances are, the only one who's going to die will be yourself....

    Killing Spree is a horrible cooldown due to the fact that you lose control over your character for too long a period of time without compensation. You're not granted immunity to any source of damage, nor can you get rid of your excess energy. It fucks your character and it fucks your rotation. It's simply not very well designed.
    So I guess you're problem with KS is you can't just blindly hit it whenever you want? You have to plan a bit? I think more cooldowns should be like that, not less.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Speaknoevil View Post
    12s shs is too strong.
    Not really even with a 12s shadowstep we'd still be on a lower side of mobility compared to most melee. Other melee have 12-15sec gap closers some with more than 1 charge + Something else like flying serpent kick or herioc leap on 25-30sec cd and/or can also remove all snares at will at no cost other than a gcd.

    And before you say but you can step allie so can druids and warriors and monks can fsk or roll anywhere etc so like I said we'd still be a on the lower half even with a 12sec shs

  13. #33
    The Lightbringer Speaknoevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    Not really even with a 12s shadowstep we'd still be on a lower side of mobility compared to most melee. Other melee have 12-15sec gap closers some with more than 1 charge + Something else like flying serpent kick or herioc leap on 25-30sec cd and/or can also remove all snares at will at no cost other than a gcd.

    And before you say but you can step allie so can druids and warriors and monks can fsk or roll anywhere etc so like I said we'd still be a on the lower half even with a 12sec shs
    That sounds like a problem with sprint CD/ Sprint not granting freedom for a few seconds to me. Lol.

    You have to take baby steps when you're buffing/nerfing though.

    12s shs is too strong.

    Edits in red:
    -16s Shadowstep that removes movement impairing effects, baseline
    -2% and 7% reduced damage taken from Recuperate (before battle fatigue)
    -Slice and Dice Removed (Rupture Damage Increased by 150% {would bring it in line with Rake[not Rip] Recuperate grants energetic Recovery)
    -Elusiveness now removes a DoT when Feint is used [10s Cooldown added to Feint]
    -Shadow Blades Removed
    -45s Cooldown Sprint, Sprint grants movement debuff immunity for 4s
    -Preparation Removed
    -Evasion Removed, replace it with baseline Combat Readiness that stacks from any damage
    -Baseline Deadly Throw
    -Cloak of Shadows to 1.5 minutes
    Last edited by Speaknoevil; 2012-12-17 at 06:29 AM.

  14. #34
    they could just make the channge they did with assa, recupe and snd both grants energetic recovery, but not double procs like rupture garrote cannot proc two vw.

  15. #35
    The Lightbringer Speaknoevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nosferato View Post
    they could just make the channge they did with assa, recupe and snd both grants energetic recovery, but not double procs like rupture garrote cannot proc two vw.
    Recuperate is way too weak at the moment, a rogue is unable to stabilize against any opponent, even when they outplay the foe.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemons View Post
    So I guess you're problem with KS is you can't just blindly hit it whenever you want? You have to plan a bit? I think more cooldowns should be like that, not less.
    That's an insanely retarded argument in Killing Spree's defense. But by all means... I'd love to see:
    - Combustion pulling a Mage into the line of fire of a boss-wipe mechanic.
    - Recklessness randomly killing a Warrior.
    - Ascendance having a chance of randomly Lava Bursting a fellow raider
    - The Stampede of Hunters having a 15% chance to spread rabies to the whole raid; causing massive dot damage
    - Doomguard having a 50% chance of setting his lovely Warlock master on fire, damaging anyone he comes into contact with
    ...

    Unreliability does not equal skill, fun, or a challenge.
    Killing Spree is in no way, shape, or form hard to use. There's no 25-page guide for "How to Killing Spree successfully" on ElitistJerks. There are no hidden mechanics to the spell. It's not even a tactical spell. In what way exactly does Killing Spree require "thought" and "planning"?!

    "Now would be a good time for me to burst down this Warlock! Oh, no! My Killing Spree seems to be stuck on his pet! I guess my plan wasn't sufficiently foolproof... I better rethink my strategy and time it better next time; thus I can guarantee never to jump to an unwanted target again."

    It's a complete loss of character control for about 3-4 seconds; a self-cc in a way. If you're in an encounter that requires precision, burst, or circumstantial mobility/quick reactions, you'll need a shit-load of LUCK! Not a "plan".

  17. #37
    While Killing Spree is a trap move and there are times you can't use it, there's also often a lot you can do to make it work the way you want. On most encounters in PvE it's enough to watch boss ability timers to use it safely. Don't use it when magmaws head is about to go up, when ragnaros is about to smash his hammer or when shield is about to go up on heroic spirit kings.

    I never PvPd as combat (your warlock + pet example), but you can make sure your KS hits exactly one target. What you need to do is start KS when only the desired target is in range. It does take some awareness + skill to pull it off, but not luck. Sometimes the window of opportunity for KS is really small, but making proper use of it is what I'd call skill - not luck.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Aylie View Post
    While Killing Spree is a trap move and there are times you can't use it, there's also often a lot you can do to make it work the way you want. On most encounters in PvE it's enough to watch boss ability timers to use it safely. Don't use it when magmaws head is about to go up, when ragnaros is about to smash his hammer or when shield is about to go up on heroic spirit kings.

    I never PvPd as combat (your warlock + pet example), but you can make sure your KS hits exactly one target. What you need to do is start KS when only the desired target is in range. It does take some awareness + skill to pull it off, but not luck. Sometimes the window of opportunity for KS is really small, but making proper use of it is what I'd call skill - not luck.
    "While Killing Spree is a trap move and there are times you can't use it..." You disregard these situations as where they nothing. Killing Spree is a vital part of our damage. Not being able to use it is a heavy blow to our dps; that alone should suffice for us to brand it as a horrible cooldown.

    True, watching out for boss timers can be very handy. However, it's much harder when you're in a timer-less fight. Look at Stone Guards. It takes about a minute or two for the entire room to be filled with traps and pools that will either kill you or cause tremendous amounts of damage to you, while there's also a chance for you to be chained mid-spree. Nonetheless, even if you can avoid killing yourself by waiting for the optimum time, any waiting will cause you to fall behind dps-wise. You'll waste Restless Blades procs, general cooldown time, potential Bandit's Guile use...

    The movement of the Warlock's pet, plus the Warlock himself makes "aiming from range" a rather difficult endeavor; especially if that Warlock has partners backing him up. How do you aim for a Warlock, from the perfect distance, while his Warrior friend is gently whispering into your ear? Suffice to say, running away from your opponent in order to land a hit-and-miss attack is very risky and simply not very user-friendly. Risk is too high of you simply landing a blow on someone else and handicapping yourself without necessarily gaining anything from it in the process.

    Sure, you'd be fine in a 1v1 setting(assuming you're fighting a petless class) but the issues of Killing Spree become apparent when you introduce multiple targets. It's an inefficient, ineffective, and potentially lethal cooldown and it deserves to be looked at again.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    - The Stampede of Hunters having a 15% chance to spread rabies to the whole raid; causing massive dot damage
    I'll have you know that my pets are perfectly healthy thank you very much.

    Joking aside, I completely agree with Incineration. Killing Spree is too unreliable and causes issues beyond your control. Now if Killing Spree was a utility spell it wouldn't matter as much, the problem lies with Combat's DPS being balanced around it. You are forced to use it if you are min/maxing. You can't always fully predict what will happen in a fight.

    We in our previous 10 man group happened to progress on the Stone Guards with one of the hardest combinations up. We had the ice crystals, cleave and pre-nerf chains. The amount of times I died because I got chained to a ranged or an ice crystal spawned under a boss during the Killing Spree was very embarrassing. You could argue that I had to hold off of Killing Spree until all the chains were up and when an ice crystal had just spawned, but that's not a well designed ability. No other cooldown (which I'm sure there is, but I can't remember them right now) has such a high chance of putting you in danger beyond your control. Falling through maps or teleporting to mobs not even close to you is very frustrating.

    This however is from the PvE side of view. In PvP it's all pressing a button and pray to god you hit the person you want to kill. The moment you design PvP around luck or too heavy RNG (Hello TfB Warriors) you went down the wrong end. PvP should be about being better than your opponent, not ''dang, I could have won if 3 of my Killing Spree hits jumped to the Priest instead''.

    It's also ridiculous on the receiving end. Say you are a class without a pet, I'll take a Warlock with the pet sacrifice talent. What are you going to do against Killing Spree? I'll tell you what, absolutely nothing. You can't CC the Rogue or split the damage with anything else. You can't even turn around and cast on the Rogue because he's behind you for the next 3.5 seconds. All you can do is sit there and eat the damage. I'm not a fan of classes who can stun or lock you down for a very long time, but at least you can trinket out of that.

    Killing Spree is one of my favorite abilities in the game. But it's design is a piece of junk. I would like to see it removed and have Eviscerate buffed to compensate.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise (Eternity), Bolt, Frostfang, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Incinerator, ascended medium armor.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    Make Shadowstep 12 second cooldown (instead of 24) and baseline for a start.

    Now, all it'd need is a stun and it would be as good as a Warriors gap closer :/

    (oh wait, Warrios charge gives you extra rage/energy too.. oh well)

    Crimson Tempest : Also stuns all targets within 10 yards for 4 seconds. (This effect can only happen once every 20 seconds)


    IF, as it seems, we're not going to be getting anymore burst damage, then reduce diminishing returns on stuns a little maybe, so if we can't burst them down quicker, we can at least stun them for a while longer to get some more damage in.
    The reason for the warrior charge stun is to assure the target is there when the warrior arrives, which may not be guaranteed if you factor latency and the fact that the charge has travel time.

    Shadowstep does not have travel time and it gives you a short duration sprint, which fills the role made by the charge stun.

    That said, shadowstep either needs a shorter cooldown or a longer mini-sprint (either 4sec mini sprint or 15 sec cooldown).

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